[0:00:00]

Camden Hunt: So if you wouldn’t mind just telling me what you had for breakfast this morning.

Josh Kane: I had breakfast this morning… I think I had two bacon, egg and cheese breakfast sandwiches with avocado and yeah, that was it.

CHt: Is that a normal breakfast for you?

JK: Basically.

CH: That’s great. Perfect. So then we can go ahead and get started. Could you just start by telling me a little about your background in the area?

JK: I was born and raised in Bar Harbor. I was born in 1984 and I grew up and went to school right here in town and graduated MDI High in 2003. And somewhere in there, like when I was a teenager, that’s when I started fishing. And as I graduated high school, kind of my passion for it took off from there. So yeah.

CH: Nice. And could you describe to me what you do on the Bay, on Frenchman Bay, specifically?

JK: On Frenchman’s Bay I have caught halibut, I used to shrimp out there…Currently, I catch a lot of lobster out in the Bay and especially the mouth of the Bay, more is what you’d call it. So, yeah, I still am on the Bay weekly, throughout the year, pretty much.

CH: And can you tell me more about that fishing experience?

JK: And can you elaborate? Sorry.

CH: Sure. Just sort of starting at the beginning, if you could kind of take me through the different things you’ve done, that would be really useful.

JK: Well, I guess when I was really young, when I was probably 12 or 13, I would lobster with my cousin in a skiff and we would fish basically inside the harbor and then north of the islands, which would be Sheep [Porcupine] and Bar [Island] and those ones. And then as I got to be a teenager, I started fishing with other people and helping them take up traps around the Bay in the fall and then early winter, just trying to help them get their gear up and just get in wherever I could and take whatever jobs I could take, just because it was nice to be out there, and it paid. I didn’t exactly love it, I guess, but I knew that it was an easy way to make money. And then as I got into high school, I met some people that fished, and I really started to enjoy being in that environment, and because they treated me like I was an adult as long as I did the work–and I was physically fit, so I was a good match. And I started going out in I guess high school shrimping on the Bay. And then–what else do we do? I didn’t really start halibut fishing until probably like eight or ten years ago. I started doing that on my own. And then, well, I guess we scalloped up there too, you know, back in my early twenties, we scalloped all over the place. And then again a couple of years back, we went all the way up to the Skillings and stuff. So yeah, so a little bit of everything.

[0:02:44]

CH: Love it! Can you tell me a little bit more about shrimping?

JK: Yeah. Back in the day we used to have 60-foot boats. Basically there were three of them about, the Lady Luck, the Thunder Bay and the Heidi and Heather. And occasionally there were obviously a lot of little lobster boats that did it too. But we would go up and fish the channels, which is on the other side of Long [Porcupine] and you could always fish all the way up to Bald Rock and then back to the [southern?]. You could tow up and down through there and catch a couple of hundred an hour of shrimp on a good day, a couple hundred pounds an hour. So some of the best fishing I’d ever seen was just on that side of that island, just like a whole bunch of boats going back and forth. And shrimp were–it was a lot of shrimp.

CH: Cool. And around what time was that?

JK: I would have to say that it was–I think it was like between [2005 and 2008], but I can’t remember the exact dates, but somewhere in that time-frame. And then they wound up closing it. And then I can’t really remember the sequence of events, but there were a lot of regulations put in place and eventually it wound up being shut down. So that’s where we are today, where we still can’t go shrimping. But as we haul traps, we see them falling out onto the rail and stuff. So I still assume there’s a biomass down there. But I mean, I guess at least if they’re breeding and reproducing, that’s good for us. So maybe someday we’ll be able to go again.

CH: Yeah, absolutely. And what about halibut? What is that like?

JK: I set tub trawls and I run them on–it’s one long line with hooks every, say, two and a half fathoms, so like 15 feet. And I bait them with herring or mackerel or something. And I run the whole thing out like 50 hooks on a line. And I can do that from early May through the middle of June now are the regulations. And I set those out on bottom and I leave them for 3 or 4 hours and then we go hauling back and hopefully you’ve landed that on a–close enough to a nice halibut. 41 inches is the legal limit for them and then anything over that you can keep. So hopefully you’ve landed one bigger than 41 [inches]. And I don’t know, it’s pretty exciting to be within sight of the harbor and be able to bring in a $[500] or 600 fish. And, I don’t know, it’s just nice, not even just for the monetary value, just for the sake that the Bay is healthy enough to support that year after year, and it’s pretty impressive.

[0:05:01]

CH: Yeah, absolutely. And how often are you out on the Bay, usually?

JK: Well, it really depends on the time of year, but from probably the middle of June until October, I spend a lot of time basically from Schooner Head to the south side of the [Porcupine] Islands, which would be the north side of Wheeler and the south side of Long [Porcupine] and Burnt [Porcupine] and Sheep [Porcupine]. And then sometimes I’ll even fish inside Bar Island in tight. But it takes a lot of patience because it’s just so slow, because it’s shallow. So a lot of times if I’m inside Bar Island I just get out of there because I get annoyed. I don’t want to take the time. But yeah, I’m on the Bay three days a week at the minimum, and if I had more traps I could be out there more.

CH: Nice. Yeah. And in terms of getting around on the Bay, what vessels do you use? How do you navigate? That sort of thing.

JK: I have a 42-foot lobster boat. It’s a Bruno hull, which is a hull from–that was made in the [1970s] and ‘80s. And a lot of guys had them because they were efficient workhorse boats, you could put a lot of fish on there, a big size for their time. Now they’re kind of small for a 42[-foot boat], but you can still put a lot of traps on them and a lot of guys made a lot of money with them. So I’m glad that I have one. I know it’s seaworthy and it’s an able boat and it cruises at about 15 knots, so we’re able to kind of zip around a little bit and it’s fuel efficient. And we basically do, at least at this point in time, we do all of our fishing on that vessel. So I scallop and then we catch lobster and we halibut fish. And then if we ever catch shrimp again, I would immediately rig up to go shrimping if I could.

CH: Nice. And can you just tell me a little bit about the seasons for each of those species?

[0:06:51]

JK: Yeah, like I said, the halibut starts from May to June, and that’s kind of when your lobster season kicks off. A lot of guys either fish outside for lobster and then they’ll leave their traps offshore. But guys like me will start to bring their traps inshore. And then as we’re doing that on our days off, we’ll catch halibut. So slowly we moved our gear either inside or brought it from home and set it if we’d taken it up the year before. And so that starts May, June, and then halibut season ends in the middle of June, [while] lobsters usually start within the next two or three weeks. So you take that time to really get your gear set up and fixed and just get ready to hammer down when the lobsters start, which is like anytime after the fourth [of July], lobsters start running hot and heavy. And depending on how many traps you got, you can fish five or six days a week and just go like that. So–and what was the rest of the question? Sorry.

CH: Just seasons for this [inaudible]

JK: Okay. Yeah. And then as we get through the end of the lobster season, we start hoping that they last a while. But I don’t want them to last too long, [because] I have to start getting ready for scalloping in April. But the way that the scallop [season?] is set up now, I’m actually scalloping in Massachusetts. So that kind of takes me away from the Bay from April 1st until the quota’s caught, which is sometime around May. And then I’m back immediately to start getting ready for halibut and for starting the cycle over again.

CH: Nice. And did you have family who worked on the Bay?

JK: I had a lot of cousins that were older than me that started lobstering and just being around fisheries and stuff. And before the ground fishery collapsed, it was those three boats I was talking about: the Lady Luck–and I mean there [were] a whole bunch more, but those were the last, Heidi and Heather, Lady Luck and the Thunder Bay. And so, yeah, I keep losing my train of thought, I’m sorry.

CH: No, it’s fine.

JK: Tired.

CH: Can you tell me a little bit more about your memories of that time.

JK: Of just the shrimp and or those boats or…?

CH: Whatever.

[0:08:50]

JK: Yeah, well, we started–those guys had been ground fishing for years, from the [1970s] in through the eighties, and those boats were still in the harbor. And we weren’t really able to do any ground fishing because you had to be in federal waters offshore. But like I said, we did a lot of the shrimping and we actually were doing some of the experimental stuff to tag cod and things like that. And I don’t know if some of those ever wound up swimming back to Frenchman’s Bay, but it wouldn’t surprise me, but there’s not really any way to tell because we won’t be able to fish for them. But it was nice to think that maybe we were tagging something offshore that would have some benefit for us in the future. So and then–yeah, I mean, it was more just the community too, of having all those people around and like on the 4th of July you’d always go out and watch for fireworks from out in the middle of the Bay and stuff, and it was just nice to have the– to still kind of feel like there was some stuff happening around the waterfront because lobstering is kind of so gung-ho that you don’t ever get downtime. Everyone’s at the dock and then they go home. So it was nice to [have] boats tied up at the dock and [be] hanging out and talking to the tourists. And it was fun.

CH: Awesome. And can you tell me a little bit about your perceptions of the Bay? (which I know is kind of a vague question, so I can clarify that a little more if you need).

JK: My perceptions of the Bay have always just been that it provides. And now that obviously some of the fisheries that it used to support back in the [1800s and] 1900s are drying up. Now we’ve got the aquaculture and because of the currents and all that stuff, it’s still able to grow kelp, grow mussels, grow oysters… So it’s still providing, even though it’s kind of transitioned from what it used to. And hopefully those things in turn will clean the Bay and then it will be cyclical and–whatever the word is–and all come back, so that’s the hope. And then nobody’s really fishing it anymore, so that’s just giving it more–other than the halibut and the lobster nobody’s catching any of the other species. A little bit of scallops, but yeah, hopefully it all starts to come back and eventually we can all start fishing again or whatever, even if it would just be recreationally. We don’t have to always make money off it– just to know what’s there and healthy. That’s my perception of the Bay.

[0:11:09]

CH Yeah, sure. And how do you think that that’s different from maybe when you first started fishing? Can you recall how you felt about the Bay then?

JK: Well, I guess because I was a lot younger, I probably hadn’t thought about it quite so much. And it was more [that] we had to make money and the fish dragging was dying out. So it was like whatever we can get, the scallops are drying up. And that’s a catch-22 because you have to fish harder, but then there’s less. And so everything was just kind of crumbling for us and none of us had lobster licenses. And so that’s when I just decided that I’m going to go lobstering, I’m going to get my license and try to get something that makes us come home every night, and closer to not so much just the Bay, but the area. And I knew I could fish out of Bar Harbor because I was born there and I fished there for a long time. And it’s a productive Bay. So it’s nice to have a berth and have a home and be able to fish in that area.

CH: Yeah. Great. And can you tell me about–in the same way–the Bay’s ecology, like things you’ve noticed that have, that have changed, that have stayed the same since you started working on the Bay?

[0:12:22]

JK: I know there’s more pogies that I see and ever since they shut the pair trawlers off offshore, I see a lot more herring up inside now. I don’t notice as many starfish. When I was a kid I would look down at the pilings and where they tie off the skiffs in Bar Harbor and it was always starfish all over the place and stuff. And it’s just weird they’re not there anymore. But we have a lot of mussels, and I’m not trying to–I’m trying to think if there’s anything else that really stands out. We have a lot more sea squirts on our traps in the shallow water now, like if the sun can see, like touch, our traps down to the water column–the traps, we have a lot of growth on them. We have all these sea squirts now and they form super quick. So I’m not sure if that has to do with the water being warmer or not. And then we get huge barnacle sets sometimes, but I’m not sure if that’s something that’s new or not, because in the grand scheme of things, I’m kind of new compared to some of these guys–I haven’t been doing it for 50 years, so–but I didn’t remember getting so many barnacles on some stuff–hasn’t been as bad the last year or two, but for a few years there they’d come through and just your whole buoy would be kind of covered in them. And it was like huh, this is kind of–for me it was new, but maybe they’d seen it in the past. But I never got an answer [from] anybody on that. And then I know that there’s a lot more lobsters around. I don’t know if it’s a warming waters or what, but for the last 10 or 20 years, up and down the coast and especially in Frenchman’s Bay, Hancock County and the next county down, we’ve all had some good fishing and we’re still doing well in Bar Harbor, and I’m sure that’s a product of having the Bay and that all come down out of there. And so it has been good that way. So I don’t think I know too many other changes that I could think of.

[0:14:16]

CH: In terms of the sea squirts, can you describe where exactly you are seeing that in the Bay?

JK: Well, I’ve seen it outside of Bar Harbor and then all the way up towards the [Bar Harbor] Ferry Terminal–that was as far up–well I guess I had my traps to Hulls Cove. But generally that was where they were the shallowest. So basically anywhere along the shores there that I had my traps for any length of time, talking like a month or two. It’s not like it happens overnight, but anywhere that the sun–because they were in 6 to 8 feet of water, some of them. And so it was just–you could see them. And that just generated–I don’t know if they photosynthesize or whatever they do, but they just exploded in there after a while. And then you’d open the door and they’d shoot you in the face. At least it was amusing, you know?

CH: Yeah, and when do you think you started seeing that?

JK: Well, I used to see them on ghost gear that have been down for a really, really long time, so I’d always kind of seen it. But when I first started noticing it in the shallow water, it could have just been because I was new. I don’t know how much I can attribute to what was happening before, but that was the first time I’d had traps up in that area. But I’ve also fished with people and not seen it to that degree. But in the last three years really, and I’m sure that would probably coincide with any time after 2012 when we had that warming stretch, the (shoal?) waters being a lot warmer and stuff.

CH: And what about for the pogies and the herring? When did you start noticing that difference and where have you noticed it?

JK: Well, I said pogies are everywhere, which is neat. I know that they–I think they used to come up but I remember when I was a kid we had–even on Hadley’s Point, it was a die-off, the pogies got–supposedly they were chased by the bluefish and so they all swam up on the beach and died and all the beaches stunk all over Maine. And yeah, so I keep losing my train of thought. What was the question again?

[0:16:16]

CH: Pogies. Just where you’ve seen them, differences, changes…

JK: Okay. And then–the pogies–normally I see the herring first, the small herring, they come in and then immediately, usually like a week or two after, the pogies will move in. And I see them the most around the breakwater and they’ll start there, and then I assume that they just follow all the way up the Bay, because those guys are out there seining in the summers now because everybody has a pogie seine license, and so everybody goes either up the Bay or the next–like down towards Southwest Harbor. But the pogies must be just all up through everywhere. I saw them as far away as Surry; I just happened to be on a cove and they were there. So I almost think they fill the Bay and then keep going out around. And then–but once I start seeing the pogies I don’t see the herring near as much–and that’s usually by August, I think. But I’m not sure if they just go deeper or up the Bay further because by that time I’m kind of moving down past Schooner Head and Egg Rock.

CH: Interesting. Thank you. Could you also tell me how the Bay has changed in terms of the people on it and the sort of the stuff that they’re doing?

[0:17:29]

JK: Well, like I said, the last 20 years have bred a lot more aquaculture, and then the cruise ships have come in a lot. So they’re a pretty active presence, which I don’t necessarily so much have a problem with the tourism as I just do the ecological impact of them– in the tenders and everything going back and forth and everything. And then you have all the lobstermen–that has exploded too. Back in the day there [weren’t] as many lobstermen, it was all scallop and draggers and they had mobile gear. So they would go to different areas. And then there [were] a few lobstermen for each port; but after the fishing got really good, that just exploded. So you have guys from up through Lamoine and everywhere else coming down–Sorrento. And these were all places that barely had a fleet, maybe 25–30 years ago. And now they’ve just exploded. And all their kids, all the lobstermen’s kids got boats and now everybody has a 40-foot boat. And there’s a lot more presence on the Bay with buoys and everything else. But I have noticed that starting to slow with the regulations that have been coming down. Yeah, seems like things are–people are just saying, “Whoa, we don’t want to do this anymore.” Everybody thought it was easy money and now it’s just starting to turn out to be work and guys are shying away from it. I don’t think other than that, if I’ve noticed any other– I mean we see the paddle board people and all the kayak guys, we share the Bay with them, and then the tour boats and everything. And I know that there’s at least two boats that do the lobster display tours. They go out and they haul traps, they can’t keep the lobsters, but they’re allowed to tend the gear and stuff. So they have their own strings and they seem to fit in with everybody. Yeah, and I think that’s mostly the use I see on the Bay.

[0:19:13]

CH: Sure. And what do you think about–do you have any impressions about the relationships between those different groups of people?

JK: Well, we always make jokes about the kayak people because they’re out there in the fog. I mean, we don’t own the ocean, but still, we’re out there hauling and these guys are just like–it could be life or death. We’re trying not to run these people over; but other than that, we’ve got it worked out pretty well with the cruise ships, that they come in a certain way and we don’t lose gear. And a lot of the tour boats generally, supposedly, have cages on them and stuff. I think we all lose a little bit of gear to them, but in their defense, we have traps everywhere. So it’s kind of hard not to. But we do leave certain channels open so that people can go through there. I know that some of the lobstermen have been upset with some of the aquaculture operations because that takes bottom away from–because the lobsterman comes in, sets his traps and moves them and that bottom’s still available. But if you put a farm on it now the only people that can use that are the people that own the farm. So that’s created some conflict. But you can’t have lobster gear everywhere. There has to be areas for everybody to work together. And I have friends that own mussel farms. My cousin’s inquiring about starting a seaweed farm. So I have people that do oysters there that I’m close with. So the Bay is plenty big enough for all of us to–there’s always going to be a little bit of conflict, but usually it gets resolved and after a while just flows seamlessly. There’s people working up in Trenton now up at the airport, just unloading mussels all the time and guys building rafts up there and then guys leave from Lamoine. And so there’s a lot happening up there.

CH: Yeah, absolutely. Where do you usually see the kayak people?

JK: Around the Islands, Bar Island, Sheep Porcupine. They have tours that they run right out through there and it seems like they’ll go in any weather, so it’ll be pea soup fog, and all of a sudden these guys will start paddling by us, like “Jesus, I didn’t even see him!” because you don’t pick them up on the radar usually. I’m exaggerating a little bit, but I’m not really, like sometimes it is that bad, but I don’t want it to seem like there’s always people almost getting run down.

[0:21:26]

CH: Sure, yeah. And what about the look of the Bay, the look of the water? Also, just as someone who fishes, you have sort of an understanding of the look of the bottom. How has the look of the Bay changed?

JK: Well, the bottom generally stays the same. And then I guess the surrounding aesthetics. You see more houses from time to time, but it all kind of blends in and [Mount Desert] Island and Cadillac [Mountain] and everything stands out so much that it doesn’t look crazy built-up, I don’t think–at least I don’t feel that way, right? Yeah, so aesthetically, I think it looks as well as it really can, considering the state of the world and everything else.

CH: Sure. Do you have any stories about things you used to do on the water, things people you know, used to do on the water that don’t happen anymore?

JK: Well obviously the shrimping, we can’t do that anymore. And that was productive, like I said, right up until whenever they closed it, I don’t know, between [2008 and 2010], I think. And then–no, because I feel like everything that they were able to do in the time that I’ve been there we’re still able to do, even if it’s a little bit more restricted or anything’s changed. So, yeah, I don’t feel that.

CH: Sure, yeah. How do you think the Bay hasn’t changed? What has been the same in your experience?

[0:23:05]

JK: I still see the same species coming out of it that were there. So I feel like–I guess there’s less clams. So to answer your previous question, now that I think about it there–yeah, there’s less clams. And that was something that I used to make a living on up there. I used to be able to dig clams. So for two or three years I was able to make a pretty good living in the summers. And then whether the green crabs came in or the ribbon worms, whatever it was, they just died out. So I don’t know what’s there now, but I haven’t heard any good reports. So I don’t think that has changed too much. So but everything else for me–I mean, there’s probably a few less lobsters around, but that’s to be expected. I don’t think that’s anything that’s really going away. But I just think that the lobsters are on a downhill slide. And so I think that we’re definitely catching a little bit less. You used to be able to push a trap about anywhere; now you have to actually kind of target them and know where they are. So, yeah, I feel like it’s mostly just maintain the status quo for I guess as long as I’ve been around.

CH: Sure. Can you tell me a little bit more about clamming?

JK: I used to clam out of Bar Harbor where there were four licenses. I had one of them. David Dutton had one, Rat Taylor and Josh Hodgkins. So for a while we maintained just the four of us digging and we would dig up near the Twinnies, up near the head of [Mount Desert] Island and up that way up near Kings Creek. And there were some closures that we had to abide by, but there was a lot of nice mud up there and it was soupy so I could pull them out with my hands if I just had a thin glove. You can feel them, so I didn’t even have to dig them so I could pull clams. And there were so many of them that I didn’t even have a lot of experience and I was able to do pretty well. And it was that way for like three years. And then after that, they kind of just never really came back the way that they always had. So I maintained my clam license for like, I don’t know, another six or seven years, but lobstering just kept getting better, and I had less and less time and I had two kids. And so it was like finally I just gave up because I was spending I think it was [$]100 for the town, [$]100 for the state, and it was $200 a year. And I was like yeah, just done with this. So I finally gave it up. And I’m not sure if they got someone to fill the vacancy or not, but I gave up on the clamming.

GC: I got your license last year.

JK: Did you? Okay. Well, my wife got my license last year.

[0:25:30]

CH: [Laughter] And around what year did you start clamming?

JK: Oh, man. I was 23, so probably [2007 or 2008], I think, were the years that I clammed. And then maybe a little bit in [2009], but it was just kind of drying up and I was doing well lobstering, so I just kind of drifted away from it.

CH: Sure. And so how do you usually get down onto the water?

JK: When I lobster? Well, I can use the–I have access at the Bar Harbor Town Pier. And when I used to clam, I would have my bicycle. And there was a guy that owned a property on the point up there. And so I could just bike down and I’d leave my hods there from the night before and then stash my clams at the end of the day. And then somebody would pick me up, I’d go sell, and then I’d bike back the next day and everything would still be there. And then, this isn’t really about the Bay, but we have access to marinas and stuff when we go out of state, like down in Gloucester, I rent a slip down there. And so I think those are the three main ways, your public, private, and yeah.

CH: Yeah sure. And in terms of the Bay, what are your opinions on shore access in general?

[0:26:49]

JK: It’s definitely shrinking the more things get bought up. But when I don’t clam my access is safe in the sense that I can get to work every day. But it’s pretty hard because you have tourists, you have everybody parked on the dock, and they just keep making the area smaller and smaller that we have to work with. They’ve been landscaping and doing all this stuff that–just like it’s taken away from areas that we used to work. And so it’s just–it’s not impossible, but it’s not the greatest facilities that we have to work with. So I know they put in a little money up to Lamoine, so those guys have a little better facility for what they have to work with, but even that’s not great for them. And then–trying to think, oh, you can–excuse me–operate out of the [Bar Harbor] Airport a little bit but you have to operate on the tides with that, which is the way in a lot of places. So it’s not impossible, but it’s another one of those things, just not having full access all the time. You can put in a boat at Hadley’s Point, but that’s tide-dependent too, small vessel only because it’s shallow. It is a little bit challenging, but as of now, we still have access and we can still work. So I guess that’s what matters.

[0:28:05]

CH: Sure, yeah. And then can I ask you, what do you value about the Bay?

JK: Its beauty, for one. Everyday we get to go out there and see all these amazing things. And that it provides a living for–some people don’t go any further than down below Schooner Head and they make a full living just fishing right there within sight of almost the dock, and that’s  pretty impressive that it could support so many families. I think a lot of people come to see Acadia and the Bay itself and just the draw and the beauty of it all that just brings everybody–and the fact that it’s still healthy.

CH: Yeah. And what do you value about working on the water?

JK: Well, I’d say the freedom, but at this point we have so many regulations and everything else. But I guess it’s the freedom that I get to set my own schedule. And when I do have to go to work, I can go somewhere where it’s gorgeous–or maybe it’s not, and maybe it’s nasty out that day. And that’s interesting, too. It presents its own set of challenges, so it’s constantly changing and it just gives you something to kind of keep you going and keep it interesting.

CH: Sure. And what do you think are the most important things about the Bay?

JK: I don’t know. It’s such a hard question to answer. I mean, you could make it economic, if you wanted. But I think there’s so much more to it than that. Just the fact that generation after generation, we get to use it and it’s still there for us and hopefully we can be stewards of it. I know we could probably be doing a lot better job, as with everything in this world, but we try, and I think the people that use the Bay, at least the locals, who understand and try to keep–take care of it and make sure we don’t just chuck things overboard like everybody used to do back in the day and [make sure that] plastic doesn’t go overboard. And I think I would say at least 90% of fishermen are super conscious of that, contrary to the reputation that we have. But sometimes that 10% really does a number on us. But I think most of us are really trying to–we know that this is our future and where we want to be. So we try to take care of it.

[0:30:27]

CH: Sure. And then what do you want for the future of the Bay?

JK: I guess in the–some sensible regulations if people–with the conflict with the aquaculture and all that, I think that’s going to make the health of the Bay vital because those things clean everything and they add to the seed that’s up there because even though they’re farms they’re still emitting seed out into the wild, so that’s helping. And–what was it again?

CH: What you’d like for the future.

JK: Okay. Yeah, I think the future is going to be a lot of aquaculture. And I know I hope that the lobsters are still there because it’s so nice to be able to fish so close to home. And I hope that we protect the shores and we don’t use all the fertilizers and stuff that we’ve been using because that just flows down into the Bay and that’s not healthy. And yeah, just that we pay more attention to more of the ecological effects of everything that man is doing around the edges of the Bay because that’s going to be what takes the Bay out, potentially. I mean, unless it gets hot, and we get algae blooms and all that “good” stuff, but hopefully not.

CH: Yeah, nice. So we’re going to move in a second to the second phase of the interview where we’ll get out some maps and refer to–Katie’s been taking some notes of some places you’ve mentioned, so I’ll just have you point those out, maybe ask some follow-up questions. Before we move there though, is there anything else you want to talk about? Anything else that’s sort of on your mind Frenchman Bay related?

[0:32:06]

JK: Well, I kind of forgot that for a while there…What was it, two or three years ago? Scalloping, when everybody was doing really well? Yeah, we were able to pull quite a lot of scallops out of the Bay there for one season also. I mean, it’s rotational. Every three years you can come back to this area. So it was open that year and guys caught a lot of scallops very close to–within sight of the dock of Bar Harbor, basically, and it was kind of neat to see the fleet be able to come in and once again catch a bounty of scallops provided by Frenchman’s Bay, and we didn’t even really know they were there. So everyone was just kind of working on them and got dialed in. And yeah, it was pretty neat.

CH: Cool. And you said that was right within Bar Harbor?

JK: Yeah, basically right under the anchorage, basically where the cruise ship is. So, yeah, and I assume that there’s probably still a mess of them there. I’m hoping–hopefully I can get a license one of these years. I can’t fish in Maine. I haven’t got a scallop license, so hopefully I can get one, as the only way you can get them is through a lottery. So you just cross your fingers.

CH: Awesome. Great. We’re going to get out some maps and Katie is going to mention some places that we’ve talked about.

JK: Okay.

Giulia Cardoso: I am smoking up the kitchen, so I had to open the window a little bit. Can you hear it?

CH: I can hear a little bit, but it hasn’t been an issue so far, so I think it’s fine.

GC: Well I didn’t want the fire alarm to go off, I thought that would’ve been the bigger issue. So–but I can close it again in a few minutes.

CH Yeah, do what you need to do.

JK: Where do you want me?

CH: Here is perfect still. But I think we’re going to just go ahead and–

JK: Do you want me to move some of this stuff?

CH: I don’t think we necessarily need to, I think we can probably do it.

[0:34:04]

CH: It’s a very large chart.

Katie Clark: And then we have more zoomed-out locations as well.

JK: Okay.

KC: Let’s see what the best color would be [inaudible].

JK: What do you want to know?

KC: So I’m going to have you just kind of circle some of the places that you mentioned.

JK: Okay.

KC: Let’s go with–let’s see which one–I think the black one’s probably just going to blend in. But–

JK: Well I’ll try the blue one first.

KC: Yeah. So first of all, we have Bar Harbor. Yeah, you could just circle around. You mentioned the [Bar Harbor Town] Pier.

JK: Mm hmm.

KC: So, just circle that. Would you like us to number as well?

CH: Yeah, I think. Let’s go ahead and just call that “1,” and then we–could you notate that on your list as well?

KC: Yes. And then Sheep Island? You said “Sheep?”

JK: Yeah.

KC: I assume you mean “Sheep Porcupine?”

JK: Yeah. So you want me to circle that?

KC: Yeah.

JK: “2?”

KC: And Bar Island… And then you mentioned a [shrimp] tow from Long Porcupine to Bald Rock?

JK: Yeah. You can kind of come up through here and then come up that way. And then some of the old timers could work their way over that way. But we never did because you can tear up your net. So it’s about where we stopped and then we’d go back down through and you could just go up and down through there catching shrimp all day. Oh, was that number four? Do you want me to label that?

CH: And the old-timers would go through here?

JK: Yeah. And head over this way. So they had a path that they could–they knew the way.

[0:36:00.16]

CH: Would you mind drawing your impression of that as well?

JK: I’m not sure how deep they were, but…Where’d we go? Now you got me thinking. Yeah, I mean, it’d just be over in here somewhere. So do you want me to label that “5” or are you guys going to do that?

CH: Call it “4.5.”  And do you have any memories of what the old timers in this area were doing, what that was like at all?

JK: No, I mean, I’ve heard of stuff way back [in the] 1800s of catching haddock and stuff up there. And then those guys are tub trawling with different material than I do for halibut, but smaller hooks and stuff like that. But yeah, they used to catch a lot of fish up the Bay. I know guys have urchined up there; guys used to pickle, I mean catch sea cucumbers up there. So there’s been a lot of different fisheries supported up there over the years.

CH: Sure. And that specifically in this sort of area?

JK: A lot of it is just basically that–this area, anywhere that these guys would– anywhere–everywhere and anywhere, they tried it all. Yeah.

KC: Schooner Head?

JK: Schooner Head is somewhere basically in here.

CH: Is that “5?”

KC: Yeah, that’s “5.” And you said–I think–were you talking about another [shrimp] tow? You said “Schooner Head to the north side of Wheeler, Long Porcupine–Long, Burnt, and Sheep Porcupine’s.”

JK: Well, basically, Wheeler is Bald Porcupine. That’s what we call it. So these guys, I think, could tow up through here, but I’m not totally sure. But they were towing out through here, too, I think. So do you want me to label that?

[0:38:02]

KC: Yeah, I think that would just be part of “5,” right? Because that’s a–

JK: “5 5”

CH: Maybe you call it “5.5?”

KC: Okay. [Bar Harbor] Ferry Terminal.

JK: Ferry Terminal would be I think this little outcropping right here.

CH: Do you know why you would call Bald Porcupine “Wheeler?”

JK: No, I don’t. No, that’s just what the draggers always called it. The guys that I fished with. So it just–it was a name that we all still use–a lot of guys in the harbor. So, yeah–no, I don’t.

KC: You mentioned Hulls–like fishing up by Hulls Cove?

JK: Yeah, I set traps basically from all up through the shoal water and then up to the [Bar Harbor] Ferry Terminal. And then I fished all the way up the bluffs till about here. And then I had traps up in here and then up through there.

CH: And that’s where you would see the sea squirts as well, right?

JK: Yeah. Mainly down through here.

CH: Okay.

JK: Yeah. And then even some over in here too.

CH: Good to know. Would you mind just labeling that “7?” Thank you.

KC: And what were the specific beaches? Where–did you see the pogie die-off yourself?

JK: Yeah, I was a little kid. Yeah, I think I saw them at Hadley’s Point. Which would be up here. Salisbury Cove, Hadley’s Point. Let me just circle it.

KC: Yeah, “8.”

Josh Kane: “8?”

KC: Yep. And then Egg Rock?

JK: Egg Rock’s right here.

KC: “9.”

[0:40:00]

KC: And Trenton Airport, the ramp area.

JK: Yeah, that’s right up here, it’s Thomas Bay. So where’s the airport? How far down is it? So the airport, I would say, the–I guess somewhere in here was the ramp. Not sure if it’s right here or not, but there’s a ramp down in here somewhere, just down past the airport.

CH: And do a lot of people use that to access the water?

JK: Yeah, more than more than you’d think.There’s a lot of the musselers, the oyster people. A lot of people are using that area. I was surprised at the amount of people that were coming in and out of there. So it’s a great point to have.

CH: Has that always been a point of access, or?

JK: Yeah, yeah. No, they launched–I’m pretty sure they launched the Thunder Bay, that’s the big boat in the harbor, right at the airport and that’s where they put her in and steamed her down the Bay. So I mean, that was in the [1980s] and I know that they were using it I think as long as it’s been there.

CH: Cool.

KC: You mentioned Lamoine as a place where people fish.

JK: Yeah.

KC: Is there–or like–would people go out of–where’s–where would the dock be, or where would they go out from?

Josh Kane: [inaudible] I guess right over in here. Which one would be the one that goes down? I think it’s right here. That’s where they just redid it. They got a bunch of pilings in, and they have a nice dock area that you can tie up for a minute if you need to.

KC: This would be “11.”

JK: ”11.”

KC: [Inaudible] I’m curious about the kayak routes. I don’t know if – or where you see them going in relation to where your boats are going.

[0:42:06]

JK: What do we got? Basically there and here a lot. And then they’re also in here a lot. So I don’t know if you want me to put a number on that.

KC: “12.”

JK: And 12.5 for the other one as [inaudible]?

KC: Yeah, sure.

JK: Okay.

KC: And then you talked about clamming at Kings Creek, the Twinnies [inaudible].

JK: Yeah, well, we were basically up here in Thomas Bay. The Twinnies were here. Would it be better to put a line or circle the whole area?

KC: Probably–well–

CH: This is for clamming?

JK: Yeah.

CH: I’d do a line because it’s the shoreline.

JK: Okay, well, I kind of clam the whole thing even out here, too, so it was off the shore as well.

CH: Then do a circle.

JK: Okay. I mean, just as long as that–

CH: Yeah, absolutely.

JK:–works for you guys. Basically that area, they trudged all around through there, depending on how big the tides were. So is that “13?” That’s terrible handwriting.

KC: And those are all the locations. I’m curious, what do you think happened to the starfish?

JK: I’m not sure. I really don’t know if they had a disease or if some type of predation moved in. I don’t know if the green crabs are eating the larva. I mean, that’s pure speculation. This smoke in here is [inaudible] but yeah, it’s just one of the things that I’ve noticed the most, because, like I said, the Bay seems pretty healthy. There’s kelp everywhere. We were scalloping and we were getting into urchins at the mouth of the Skillings River, things like that. And so I’m seeing that there’s a lot of life in the Bay, but the starfish just seem to be non-existent. So, I mean, we get different kinds in our lobster traps, but it’s just not the same as inshore at the docks like we used to see in the [1980s] and then early [1990s].

[0:44:14]

CH: Do you see a size difference as well, or is it more of a quantity thing?

JK: Both. Even when I do see them, they’re smaller. When I was a kid, they used to be quite a lot bigger. And then we just–we don’t see that.

CH: Interesting.

JK: Yeah.

CH: Well great. Thank you so much.

JK: Yeah!

CH: I’ll go ahead and get this all–

JK: Sorry, I was a little spacey today.

CH: No, you’re fine.

JK: I was just tired, I was in the sun all day.

GC: I know why it’s called Wheeler.

JK: I thought you might.

CH: What?

GC: I know why it’s called Wheeler.

CH: Oh, sure. Would you mind?

GC: Can you hear me?

CHt: Yes.

GC: So this story was told to me by my first captain, Steve Burns. And I don’t always fully trust 100% [of what] he says.

JK: But he’s been around for a while.

GC: But usually with folk stories, he’s pretty spot-on because he’s been around for a while and he likes to collect them. So he told me that [Bald Porcupine] was called Wheeler back at the time of steamboats because there was no way to announce that the steamboats were coming or–no, hang on. The only way they would announce that the steamboats were coming around Wheeler, which is called–is it Burnt [Porcupine]? Bald.

JK: Bald.

GC: Bald. Was to shout that there was a “wheeler” coming because they had that big wheel from the steamboat. And so when they saw their boats coming by Wheeler, they would shout, “Wheeler!” So that’s how “Wheeler” came to be. I told it terribly, but–

JK: No. [inaudible]

GC: I hope it came across.

JK: Yeah, I mean, Steve, he’d probably know.

GC: Yeah, this is what he told me. So it’s back to the 1800s. Or no, probably not. I don’t know when you had steamboats.

JK: Yeah, I’m not sure, but he’s old enough. He’s in his seventies, so he would have been here in the [1950s], which would have put the people that he was talking to…

GC: Yeah. Like, to whenever.

JK: Yeah. So I would believe it.

GC: Yeah.

JK: Now I have to go find his traps for him.

GC: As a thank-you for this story.

JK: Yeah.

[0:46:02]

CH: Great. Perfect, thanks.

KC: I thought of one more. You talked about scalloping. And that there were a lot of scallops over–you said by the anchor where the cruise ship is?

JK: Yeah. So now, basically, we were scalloping–I guess it was a little bit outside of it. That was an exaggeration, but it was in this deep water right in the center here around where this tow is.

GC: Weren’t they south of Wheeler, too?

JK: South of Wheeler?

GC: I remember seeing them around Wheeler, yeah.

JK: They may have been in that deep water.

GC: I think in that deep channel, there, right there.

JK: So there, they were scalloping there, and then I was told–

GC: Well, we were towing –

JK: Well, we were too, but I meant that biomass of scallops.

GC: Oh, they were big.

JK: They were fucking ass-deep–sorry. And you know, these guys towed there for three weeks and got 10-count the whole time. So I was impressed with it. I didn’t have enough wire to quite tow that deep, so I was pissed, I couldn’t get to them.

GC: We were towing right here.

JK: So we were going down through here.

GC: We could see them, too.

JK: Yeah, we weren’t doing as good.

GC: We were not doing as good.

JK: So–and then what was the other thing?

GC: Otter Cliffs?

JK: No, no, I didn’t say that, but I was just thinking something about–Oh, when in the [1950s] I heard–where’s the Shore Path? Right here! These guys were–had 700 pounds of scallops in one day off the Shore Path.

CH: Wow.

JK  Heard about it from a friend of mine way back. So their–was even more productive back then, and that was in the 1950s or 60s. But now they just seem to move it out deeper.

CH: Alright, perfect. Well, thank you so much. I will get this all set.

[0:47:42]