Elliot Clapp: [0:00:14] My name is Elliot Clapp. I live in Providence, Rhode Island, and I work in the – okay.

Galen Koch: [0:00:22] Where do you work? [laughter]

EC: [0:00:23] Where do I work? It’s a very long title. I work at the Division of Experimental and Foundation Studies at the Rhode Island School of Design [RISD], and I am their Innovation Director. So, that’s a first-year student program.

GK: [0:00:40] Very cool. How did you come to Haystack? What’s your Haystack history?

EC: [0:00:45] My Haystack history is I was living in Providence, and it was around 2010, and I was involved with AS220, which was the local arts program in Providence – nonprofit. They had this program called – actually, I was out at some event in the streets, and Shawn Wallace, who at the time worked AS220 Labs, and there was a laser cutter that he was demonstrating, and I got very interested in that. I’d never seen one before. So, he was promoting a program that AS220 was going to run that was developed by Neil Gershenfeld, who runs the Center for Bits and Atoms, and it was a program called Fab Academy that was an offshoot from a class at MIT called “How to Make Almost Anything.” A lot more students than he expected from other departments at MIT were taking the class, and it dawned on him that it was a very important class and a lot more people that had nothing related to computational – that’s a terrible way – people from different aspects of MIT were very interested, so he thought he could offshoot it into the normal world, the regular person world. I don’t know what the correct term is.

GK: [0:02:29] And offer it outside of the confines of –?

EC: [0:02:31] He decided to create Fab Academy as a version of that class. So, in order to do that, he also basically created Fab Labs, which were nodes of places that you could go that had the same digital fabrication equipment. So, anywhere in the world, if you went to a Fab Lab, you can expect to get that same digital fabrication equipment. I signed up for that class, and I think it was the first year they ran it, first or second year, went through it, learned how to use all the digital fabrication tools, learned how to program, learned how to do electronics, how to create circuit boards. It was all very interesting and very hard. And after that was over, they said that there’s this arts and crafts school or this craft school in Maine that has a Fab Lab, and they need people to volunteer to work there. At that point, I was working for a travel photographer as an assistant. I didn’t have a consistent job, so my schedule was very open at that time in 2011. So I came up here to Haystack without having any idea what it was, really, and like most people, fell in love with Haystack and the people immediately. There were several open spaces for people to work in the Fab Lab because it was the first year. It was mainly Neil Gershenfeld’s MIT Ph.D. students [who] were working in the lab, so they had a lot of open spaces. So, I talked my way into staying here to fill those spaces. That first year, I was here for seven weeks, which was also because I had a pretty flexible schedule. As I like to say, I was self-unemployed at that point. That’s how I ended up at Haystack.

GK: [0:04:49] So you were working for AS220 when you found out about the Fab Academy?

EC: [0:04:57] I was taking classes there. At that point, I was interested in photography, and they were the only place – I basically found AS220 in Providence because I was looking for a darkroom. Then discovered the darkroom, worked in the darkroom, and then once I had gone through Fab Academy, I was also teaching the laser cutter classes. I never officially worked for them full-time. I was a freelance instructor.

GK: [0:05:23] Did you have an art practice outside of your loose employment?

EC: [0:05:31] My background is I went to Rhode Island School of Design and graduated with an illustration degree and then, for several years, was an illustrator and designer and art director doing a lot of advertising work [and] video game work. I was an illustrator – I was the heads-up display artist for Guitar Hero. My biggest claim to fame is Guitar Hero. So, I basically worked in the advertising field and then worked in video games. I never really had my own professional practice. I just was interested in a lot of different things. I have a very wide breadth but shallow understanding on how to do lots of different things. That’s another reason why I like coming up here is I understand how most people or most of the classes that happen here, how their processes work, and how to integrate it into the Fab Lab or go to the class and suggest how they can possibly use the digital fabrication tools in their class.

GK: [0:06:50] Right. That was what I was wondering. Those first years when you were here with MIT Ph.D. students, how were you different? What did you bring to the Fab Lab that was different?

EC: [0:07:05] The MIT students – I realized they learn things verbally. They would try to teach us – I was up here, and some of the equipment I didn’t know how to use, so they would verbally tell us how to use the equipment, and we would take notes, and then they would leave, and we would have no idea what we’re doing. I think I know that, at least for artists and designers, they’re usually very visual, and also, working hands-on helps a lot. I understood more of the materials they were working with and their thought process. The MIT students would be able to solve complicated problems. I don’t really know – there is a difference, but it’s not coming to me right now exactly what it was, but it was definitely – I was able to understand – I think I would interact – I don’t want to say the MIT students couldn’t do this, but I would have more of a conversation with them as opposed to solve the problem and then run the machine and then give them the solution or the item that they need.

GK: [0:08:34] Did you see in those first years –? 2011 was the first year?

EC: [0:08:39] Yeah.

GK: [0:08:43] What was it like just to be in the space, having MIT students and artists? Did you see them responding [and] changing the way that they were teaching about the Fab Lab over time? Has that changed? Because there are still some people who are – I’m just thinking of – you were here at the very, very beginning, and I imagine things maybe started to evolve.

EC: [0:09:13] I forget who I was up here with, but my memory of – there was one PhD student here. A lot of the time, when the students are here, they’re working on their own projects, so they’re building machines. Because they’re still at that – they’re still working for Neil as PhD students. So they’re up here with very complicated problems that they’re working on on their own.

GK: [0:09:44] They weren’t really in the same position as a Fab Lab tech? Or were they?

EC: [0:09:53] They were. I mean, they knew how to run the machines. Some of them did have some crafts background. I know some of them knew how to do ceramics. MIT has glassblowing. So, they weren’t – it was not like robots were sitting in the Fab Lab and artists coming in, and there was no – unable to communicate with each other. I feel like there was a lot more – I don’t want to say there’s more conversation. Yeah, it’s tough. It’s been a while since I’ve been up here with an MIT student. It’s been lately either by myself, with Arthur [Hash], or some other artist as a joint resident.

GK: [0:10:39] What I’m just curious about – because I just had – in May, I had done an interview with Neil and Stu [Stuart Kestenbaum] together about the beginning.

EC: [0:10:51] Yeah, the beginnings.

GK: [0:10:53] The beginning. I was just transcribing it last night and listening to it. I was just thinking about that time of what it felt like. I think even just how it was different would be really interesting to know.

EC: [0:11:06] Right. It was a little bit more of a Wild West at that point. I don’t know if you’re calling them still – if we’re retroactively calling them residents. Back then, we were Fab Lab Gurus at the beginning.

GK: [0:11:22] You can use that term.

EC: [0:11:23] Okay. In the beginning, we were Fab Lab Gurus. We were living in the lab. When I arrived, there was no reservation system set up. A lot of the MIT students were burning themselves out because they were helping people until midnight or 1:00 AM. in the morning. So, I’ve seen it evolve from, again, the Wild West into a place that has a schedule and a little bit more rules. Those happened organically because no one had ever put a Fab Lab in a craft environment, so nobody knew how things would go and what they needed to do to evolve to where it is now. At some point, while I was here, they set up a fee that you had to pay, and that was a way to create a barrier for people who are actually interested to use the lab. When they didn’t have that, if it was free and accessible to everyone, which would be great, we would be inundated with too many people that didn’t necessarily need to use the lab. It’s hard to remember back then. I just remember there were people – I mean, people started using it right off. The laser cutter is the most popular and easiest machine to use. I remember there was – I believe it was a paper-making class, and we were bringing paper in and just doing a lot of experimentation, like cutting wet paper, cutting dry paper, cutting multiple layers of paper.

GK: [0:13:13] I’m going to do something really quick because the wind suddenly picked up. I’m going to pin that on the inside, so I think this will help. Those little things pick up wind. Neil was telling about a time when someone tried to cut hair in the laser cutter. Were you there for that? [laughter]

EC: [0:13:36] I was not there for that. I was here for – yes, we learned a lot of things not to do. Somebody milled a giant plaster mold on the CNC machine, which worked really well, but it took longer to clean up than it did to cut the mold. So, I think that’s been banned. [laughter] I’m trying to think of what else. They used to cut acrylic, and the smell would blow across the campus. So, not the best. I think we’ve banned that now. I wish I could remember back that far about the Wild West of the Fab Lab.

GK: [0:14:19] How many times have you been here?

EC: [0:14:26] I’ve been here every year since 2011, except for the two years that the pandemic shut Haystack down. One of the years, I was here co-teaching a class with Arthur Hash about wearable electronics. Arthur has a background in jewelry and metals, and I have the information I learned from Fab Academy, which is electronics and programming. Again, I sort of had this wide breadth, shallow understanding of lots of sewing and weaving and just a lot of different – large expansive information, again, not too deep. So, we’re able to mix our proficiencies together and create this wearable electronics class. Again, that was one year that I was here, but I was actually not in the Fab Lab. So, it’s been eleven years I’ve been coming up here.

GK: [0:15:34] And how would you describe the role of a Fab Lab resident now?

EC: [0:15:41] In my mind, it is basically to try to teach people who come here. Basically, what happens is that a student will have an introduction. Students who are interested can come, and we can have a little introduction of what the tools are in the lab and how we can help them. We also have a meeting with the faculty. If I know what the faculty are doing in the class, there may be – if I know the faculty are doing in their class, there may be some machine that will help them specifically with their class. I may talk to the faculty member and tell them about this process that may make sense in their class. If a student is interested in using the Fab Lab, they can come in, and they have to first consult with one of the residents. We’ll have a discussion with them to see if it actually makes sense for them to use the lab, and if it does, they will move on to step two, which is usually to show them how to – usually begins with using software, showing them how to take a drawing and put it into the computer and then show them how to use the software to create the file that we will then use to cut on the laser cutter or to 3D print. Those are the two most popular outputs. The goal is to teach them how to use the equipment and the software. Sometimes, the software might be too much for them to understand, or they don’t have time to – the hurdle of learning software might be too big for them to get over. We will sometimes just sit with them and have them watch us create their file or take the raw material that they’ve created or the drawing that they’ve created and turn it into a file that we can then cut on the laser cutter. So, usually, the software is the hardest part for them to learn. Usually, the files are fairly easy to convert in the software to then send to the machine, and then we’ll show them how to use the machine. The machines, surprisingly, are easier to learn how to use than the software. We’ll send the file, say, to the laser cutter, and then we’ll step them, step-by-step, through how to use the laser cutter. Some people come back over and over again, and at a certain point, they won’t have to talk to us anymore; they can just run the machines on their own. Some people come once, and they get what they wanted, and they are fine, and then they leave, and we never see them again. And then there are times where people are in here every single day. I’ve had people who get overwhelmed in their class, and then they are actually more comfortable using computers. Somebody from ceramics ended up in the Fab Lab most days because they were intimidated by ceramics, surprisingly.

GK: [0:18:57] Yeah, interesting. I assume when it first started, that probably never –

EC: [0:19:02] No, that didn’t happen.

GK: [0:19:04] [laughter] It’s changed over time. Are there, in your mind, applications for the Fab Lab that are more successful? Are there some things where you’re like that just is not the right fit? Can you talk about that?

EC: [0:19:24] There was one session that I was here, and the most successful use of the Fab Lab was everyone made tools. Almost every single class or workshop made tools to then help them complete the items that they were creating in class. When there was the walkthrough at the end of the session, there were no digitally fabricated pieces on the tables, but there were handmade pieces that used tools that had come out of the Fab Lab. So, to me, that was the best use of the Fab Lab because, for the most part, the Fab Lab is a digital fabrication prototyping area. I’m so used to seeing laser-cut objects that it sort of becomes like, “Oh, it’s been laser-cut.” It’s sort of an obvious outcome. But if you make a tool that is laser cut and use it in ceramics, it’s not obvious at all. It just makes their life easier. What this also allows people to do is to make things that would take too long to make by hand. It gives people the chance to think of an idea and then have an output in a short amount of time, especially in this condensed workshop environment, where they can have a complex idea, they can create it in the Fab Lab, and then bring it back to their workshop and use it when, otherwise, they would have ideas that they couldn’t complete because they didn’t have access to these tools. Things that were too complicated to do, too time-consuming to do, and too intricate, or there’s precision things that we can do that would be too hard to do by hand or would take too long.

GK: [0:21:18] Yeah, there’s an interesting – and that conversation between the technology and the fabrication and then the materials that people are using. I wonder how you’ve seen that evolve in your time. Because you’ve been here for so long, I imagine that people are approaching it in a different way now than they might have. Maybe they aren’t.

EC: [0:21:42] They aren’t. It still is obviously very craft-focused here. This session is a good example of – there’s a paper folding workshop, and their TA [teacher assistant] has come in almost every single day for several hours to run students’ works that are basically paper folding designs, and we’re creating creases and cuts that, again, would have taken them way too long to do by hand. I haven’t seen the work that they’ve done, but I think it would have taken – they would have seventy-five percent of the work that they have now. It speeds up their class, and they can get more done and learn more, I think, because they have access to this space and their teacher uses digital fabrication in their paper folding work, so they were familiar with the equipment here. I think because they were familiar with it and the teacher was familiar with it, they were able to think that way. For the most part, students aren’t – again, because they understand what the – we’ll show them what the machines do, but you have to – it helps if you have a larger understanding of the software to understand what is possible on the machines. They go hand-in-hand. Again, there are things – like glass uses the vinyl cutter to create stencils to sandblast. So, again, making tools to help them do their craft. Very rarely do we see – the people that we see in here that use the machines to a surprising outcome have some experience with digital fabrication. To get to that level would be hard to do in a two-week session.

GK: [0:23:49] Yeah, maybe that’s what I was wondering about. Because digital fabrication is more – not common, but maybe people have more experience with it now that you may have more faculty who are comfortable integrating the Fab Lab in class rather than – in 2011, it was probably, like you said, nobody knew how to do that.

EC: [0:24:15] Yeah. In 2011, there were basically no 3D printers for the most part. Obviously, laser cutters – yes, now there are a lot. I see in the catalog there are a lot more faculty that actually do digital fabrication in their own work and try to integrate the Fab Lab more. Or they’ll contact Haystack before they get here to say, “I would like to use the lab,” or “What equipment do you have? This is what I want to do.” I still see a lot of students that don’t have access to labs where they are. I’ll tend to ask them when I’m showing them how to use the machines, like, “Do you have access to this equipment?” Because what I’m teaching you now will be applicable to that – if you have a Fab Lab or a digital fabrication space where you are, most of them don’t, or they don’t know that they may have access to one, and now this sort of opens their eyes to the possibilities. When they go back, they can seek out a lab that they can use. I also think, in the past, a lot of people didn’t bring computers to Haystack. I think also people who come here are probably most likely trying to get away from staring at a computer all day, so they’re interested in what’s happening here, but I think the draw of the woods and hand making something can overpower that, which is great, I think.

GK: [0:25:46] Yeah, it sounds like there’s an application that works best, too, that you’re talking about with the tools, where you’re using this to then go back to making.

EC: [0:25:58] Right. You’re using this to speed up the process or allow you to make something more complicated or make something that you’re like, “Oh, I didn’t even – I thought of that when I was at home and didn’t think I would be able to do it because it was a two-week long session.” And then we give them the opportunity to be like, “Oh yeah, you can make …” For example, the TA in ceramics made, I think, four paddles with different designs on them that he can use on his clay and other students were making other designs that they can press into their clay. Those would take time out of their practice in the classroom to make a tool to help them in class when they can come here and in an hour or two leave with multiples of something that, if they came up here, they wouldn’t even make. They wouldn’t be like, “Oh, I’ll have time to carve a piece of wood.”

GK: [0:26:54] Have you been in other Fab Labs?

EC: [0:27:00] AS220 has the Fab Lab that’s in Providence. I’ve seen digital fabrication spaces at MIT. I’ve been to two Fab Labs in Iceland. Have I been to any other ones? I was at Penland when they were talking about building a Fab Lab, so they have one, I think, now, but it was not there when I was there. I think that’s all the labs I’ve been to.

GK: [0:27:30] Does Haystack’s feel different to you?

EC: [0:27:35] Oh, yeah. I’ve also been to a lab in Amsterdam. It does. It’s in the woods, so it’s very different. I think a lot of – in the labs that I’ve seen, they’re either adjacent to schools or in large cities or both, and they tend to get a lot of engineer-type of people. People are interested in machines and programming and that kind of thing. So, it’s sort of an engineer side – I’m not sure how to say it, but it’s mostly people who have a background in engineering. A lot of people who are retired engineers who, in their practice before they retired, didn’t have this type of equipment become very interested in those kinds of labs. This lab and AS220 are very integrated into the arts, so there’s a lot more unusual things happening in the labs, like unusual materials being cut on the laser cutters, like bananas and other food items. I’ve seen people create cookies in the laser cutter. Here, at RISD and at AS220, it’s encouraged to use these industrial machines in a way that they were not intended to be used as long as they don’t break the machines, of course.

GK: [0:29:17] I got distracted by my own thoughts.

EC: [0:29:19] Right. You’re like, “Huh?”

GK: [0:29:21] I got distracted by cookies [inaudible].

EC: [0:29:23] [laughter] You’re like, “Haystack has the most cookies of all the Fab Labs, I think.”

GK: [0:29:28] [laughter] Many cookies we’ve made on the laser cutter. You mentioned this, but I’m just curious – I think this touches on what you’re talking about – what you need to know to be a Fab Lab resident? Because it’s maybe different than what you might need to know to be a Haystack Fab Lab resident. What are some of the skills? What are [inaudible] that you need to know?

EC: [0:29:55] Well, I think the Fab Lab here is integrated very closely with the workshops. It’s on the same campus, and because it’s such a short period of time, this lab is very different because there are residents here that are – you show up, and you don’t know what’s going to happen. It’s a surprise. It’s a surprise depending on who is teaching the different workshops [and] the different level of students that come in. It’s a lot busier here with – every two weeks, it’s a whole group of around ninety or a hundred students. If you’re at AS220, which is the arts organization in Providence, you will see pretty much the same people over and over again because they live in the city, and there’ll be maybe less people. I lost my train of thought.

GK: [0:31:02] What skills do you need to be at Haystack specifically?

EC: [0:31:06] Right. I think patience and understanding of what the students want. They may not be able to articulate what they want because they don’t understand what the machines do. The ability to sort of metaphorically give examples of how the machine works compared to how they would do things by hand. An understanding of the arts, so you understand what the material is that they’re working with and ability to temper people’s expectations of what the machines can do. Some people think they’re magical machines that just run themselves. And it’s the ability to talk to people, be welcoming to people because a lot of people are intimidated or feel like they can’t use the machines. To be able to encourage them to use the machines, even if they’re computer illiterate, they can create something that can be digitally output just by doing a drawing by hand. It’s encouragement, patience, and understanding of how the school works and how the different materials and different workshops function.

GK: [0:32:36] Why do you keep coming back so many times?

EC: [0:32:40] [laughter] Because they beg. No, because Haystack is an amazing place. I think everyone says that. But it’s an amazing – it’s taking two things that I’m really interested in – or three things – basically, the arts and digital fabrication and being able to help people. Coming up here is also a way to get away from my job, which is similar to this, but it also helps me to learn, integrate things that are happening at Haystack in the Fab Lab and outside of the Fab Lab, and take some of that information back to Providence and vice versa. To come up here, see how this is evolving, [and] give suggestions if I see something that might work better because of something that we’re doing in Providence. But I come up here because it’s Haystack, and it’s a great place to be.

GK: [0:33:45] Do you feel like you’ve come away from sessions with a different perspective on making something? Do you just overtly learn things when you’re working?

EC: [0:34:01] Yeah. I think seeing people come in, seeing people with different backgrounds and different classes and materials that they’re working with, and basically being pretty experimental up here. So, I learn things that are happening in the classrooms, like ceramics or woodworking. This session, we learned how to make a broom. So, that’s something I didn’t necessarily – wouldn’t necessarily have done on my own. I do learn a lot of things that are happening in the classrooms. It also invigorates me. When I leave here, I want to do more things by hand than I normally do or learn more about, say, broom-making or other things like that. We’re giving a lot of information to the students, but they’re also giving us a lot of information. It’s invigorating in a way where I go back, even though it’s basically a job, I go back with a lot more excitement about things I will do at home or outside of work and also at work.

GK: [0:35:31] That’s great. We’ve been talking for like forty minutes, if you can believe it, so we can stop. But I’m wondering if there is anything that is on your mind that I didn’t ask you about, about the culture, being here for many years.

EC: [0:35:54] I don’t know. I’m blanking.

GK: [0:35:56] Your favorite story. You made some beautiful videos with Arthur.

EC: [0:36:02] Oh, right. Yeah. It’s always amazing to see, especially – I use glass – is that going to be a problem?

GK: [0:36:12] No. We really roll with the Haystack vibe.

EC: [0:36:21] There tends to be glassblowing here most of the time that I’m here, so watching people blowing glass is pretty amazing. They make it look effortless. I’ve done some glassblowing, and I realize how incredibly hard it is. So, seeing people who are really good at their craft working and then realizing that things that I think are easy to do in the Fab Lab are completely – I don’t know what the term is, but basically, there’ll be things that people are doing in the ceramics classroom in glassblowing class that I have no concept of how they’re doing it, and I don’t have the skill level at all to accomplish what they’re accomplishing. And then they come into our space and have the same feeling. I’m like, “Oh, no, it’s really easy to do for me,” and then I’m trying to meet in the middle somehow. That did not make any sense at all.

GK: [0:37:28] It’s like a knowledge-sharing thing, right? That’s a simple way to put it. What is the word? Synergies or something.

EC: [0:37:41] Right. I’ve learned how to do a lot of things here by watching and also having instructors or TAs or students who take the time out to teach me how to do the crafts or the skills that they’re learning in their class. I can’t point to one specific thing. It’s a general invigoration – I don’t know what the word is. It’s invigorating to be here because everyone is being very creative.

GK: [0:38:16] Yeah.

EC: [0:38:18] I don’t know.

GK: [0:38:19] Yeah, that’s great. You’re articulating – you’re like, “How do I articulate the magical place …?”

EC: [0:38:24] Right. It’s magical. The cookies are amazing. We joke that it’s like coming to art camp, but that’s what it is. Even though you’re only here for about two weeks, it’s almost like a regular school year where the first week is your first semester, and then the second week is your second semester where you’ve gained a lot of knowledge, and you now are able to do so much more. It becomes a very small community for that two weeks. It’s not like any place I’ve been.

GK: [0:39:08] Perfect. You nailed it.

EC: [0:39:10] Nailed it, I think. I don’t know.

GK: [0:39:11] [laughter] Thanks, Elliot.

EC: [0:39:14] Okay. Thank you.

GK: [0:39:15] Thank you.