Q:  [0:00] Great.  So we’d like to start with how do you like to introduce yourself?

 

A:  [0:05] Well, my name is Emma Fernald.  I’m 27.  I live on Little Cranberry Island full-time, and I have been working on a lobster boat and I have a scallop farm.

 

Q:  [0:21] In 27, what year were you born?

 

A:  [0:24] ’97.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [0:26] Great.  And can you tell me about where you grew up?

 

A:  [0:29] So I grew up between Mount Desert Island and Little Cranberry Island.  I went to school in Boston for college, but I grew up splitting my time between MDI and Little Cranberry.  I stayed six months on MDI while I’d go to school, and then I’d commute for a couple months on either end, and then spent most of the summer and fall and spring on Little Cranberry.

 

Q:  [0:59] And where are your parents from and what did they do?

 

A:  [1:03] My dad is from Little Cranberry. He’s sixth generation on Little Cranberry.  And my mom is from Texas.

 

Q:  [1:15] And so is the Fernald side your dad’s side –

 

A:  [1:16] Yeah.

 

Q:  [1:17] – sixth generation.  Is that like do people go back much further than that?  I mean – I mean –

 

A:  [1:20] There are a couple families.  There’s the Spurlings and the Hadlocks that are kind of OG Islesford families.  Little Cranberry is the island, Islesford is the town on the island.  They’re interchangeable though.  There’s only one town.  So those two families are kind of the originals and then the Fernalds were like right after that.  So.

 

Q:  [1:43] Do you know sort of like what era or like decade that was about the first Fernald (inaudible)?

 

A:  [1:48] It was 17 – late 1700s.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [1:50] And what brought them here?  Do you know?

 

A:  [1:53] I don’t really know.  I know they’re from –  there’s English Fernalds and Northern French Fernalds.  I don’t know why they came.  I think that the first Fernald to come to Little Cranberry was a surgeon on the boat.  So yeah, then we transitioned to the lobster fishing.

 

Q:  [2:13] Yeah.  So was your father a lobster fisherman?

 

A:  [2:16] Yeah.  He’s sixth generation lobster fishermen too.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [2:20] Great.  And what did your mom do?

 

A:  [2:22] My mom waited tables for like 20 years and then when she had my brother and I, she just took care of us, and she knows she’s worked like odd jobs throughout, working up flower shops and waiting tables, bartending.

 

Q:  [2:41] And are your parents out here or do they split their time?

 

A:  [2:45] My mom lives in Bar Harbor full-time and then my dad still splits his time between Bar Harbor and Little Cranberry.

 

Q:  [2:55] And how about you?  Are you here year-round?  Or do you split?

 

A:  [2:57] Yeah. I’m here.  This is my fifth year full-time on the island, and my partner and I just bought a house out here two years ago.  So we’re here for the long haul.

 

Q:  [3:06] And so you mentioned a brother.  How old is he and what does he do and where does he live?

 

A:  [3:13] He is 29.  (laughter)  And he lives in Bar Harbor.  And he works at a restaurant.  And he does the pastry at a restaurant and all the prep.

 

Q:  [3:24] And that’s your only sibling?

 

A:  [3:26] I also have a half brother and he lives in Baltimore and he is an accountant.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [3:34] Have either of your other siblings?  We’re going to get a lot more into your history and your fishery and the fishing (inaudible; overlapping dialogue) in addition to the fishing.  But have either of them had any role?

 

A:  [3:42] My brother who is my full brother, Coleman, he was not interested.  And my half brother, Marcus, he would sometimes stern with my dad when he would be here for the summers.  So.  But he was never like interested.

 

Q:  [3:58] And we’ve finally done this in your history.  And we’ve definitely already touched on this.  And your history is very rich.  But we have – do you have any history of fishing in your family?

 

A:  [4:08] Yes, I do.  So I am seventh generation.  My dad’s a lobsterman.  Two of his brothers are a lobsterman.  My grandfather was a lobsterman too.  And then going back to the first generation.  So, yes, I do.  (laughter)

 

Q:  [4:25] And then in addition to directly fishing, do you have any history of family working in other roles in the fishing industry, such as supporting with bookkeeping or working more in the fish processing and marketing side or bait or gear?

 

A:  [4:40] I – I mean, not formally, but I think there’s definitely a lot of wives doing a lot of the – I know my grandmother used to help my grandfather paint buoys.  And like growing up, I would make bait bags for my dad on the couch while I was watching TV.  And yeah, there’s no formal job, but I think that it kind of takes a little bit of a crew to get it all going.  So.

 

Q:  [5:09] How about your mom?  Do you remember her doing any of those types of things?

 

A:  [5:12] I mean, not in the same way that directly related to fishing.  But my dad, when I was growing up, he’d be gone hours before I’d wake up and he wouldn’t get back until like seven at night.  So, it was like he couldn’t exist without my mom doing all the stuff that she did.  (laughter)

 

Q:  [5:26] Definitely.  And then you mentioned a little bit about your education. Could you kind of take us back like, did you go to schools on MDI – and you mentioned Boston?  Could you describe a little about your educational background?

 

A:  [5:47] So, I went to elementary and middle school at the Conners Emerson School in Bar Harbor.  And then I went to MDI High School.  And then I went to Leslie University for college.  And I studied art there.  I just did a four-year program. Yeah.  Graduated in 2019 and moved here.

 

Q:  [6:08] And you came right back.

 

A:  [6:10] Yeah.

 

Q:  [6:11] And you mentioned, I think, a partner.  We – are you married or you’re –

 

A:  [6:15] I have a live-in boyfriend.  So, we own the house together.  And he’s also a fisherman.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [6:23] And do you have any children?

 

A:  [6:27] No.  (laughter).  I don’t.

 

Q:  [6:29] If you had children, would you want them to go into fishing?

 

A:  [6:33] I mean, I wouldn’t discourage anybody from going into it, but I just feel like, you know, uncertain times for me.  So, it feels like even more uncertain times for like potentially like 20 years from now, 30 years from now.  So.

 

Q:  [6:50] I guess we’ll come back to all (inaudible; overlapping) –

 

A:  [6:52] OK.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [6:53] – a lot of questions about that.  So, I’d love to come back to that.  Maybe kind of going with the more like basics first in terms of your role in the sector.  Like, how do you describe your work and your role in the fishing and aquaculture industry in Maine?  And that could include like your trajectory, like what you did in the past and what you do now.

 

A:  [7:10] So, I work on my dad’s boat right now.  I’m sternman on his boat.  I’ve been sterning for five years.  I’ve been on his boat for three.  And I’ve had a scallop farm for two.  I’m also first on the wait list to get my lobster license.  So, hopefully next year.  But yeah, so I definitely see myself continuing this path and I’d like to be my own captain soon.  And then I’m really excited about the scallop farm too. It’s been really cool learning about how it all works.  And there’s so few farms in the United States, let alone in – in Maine.  So, I’ve had like a couple mentors that have more established farms that have been really helpful and super generous with information, which is something I’m not that used to going into the fishing industry.  But – but, yeah, so it’s been, it’s been really awesome learning about that too.

 

Q:  [8:20] Yeah, and so folks in the lobby didn’t do the student license program. You are in the regular (inaudible) to do this.

 

A:  [8:21] Yeah, I had a student license for a little while when I was really young, when I was like seven, eight, nine.  And I had five traps and my dad would just call me when he’d get in from fishing and then we go all my traps, and then that was kind of it.  But then, you know, I turned like 13 and I was like, yeah, I don’t really – I’m not interested in this.  And then when I came back to Maine after – after school, I wasn’t planning on staying in Maine. Actually I like packed up my car and I was driving to California, and I got T-boned in Brunswick, Maine and it totaled my car.  And I was like, OK, well, what am I going to do now?  And I came back and then my dad jokingly said that his friend was looking for a sternman, and I was like, OK, I’ll do that.  And then I started doing it and I was like, OK, I like this a lot.  And so I continued to do it.

 

Q:  [9:29] When were you headed out, did you have something like (inaudible) with you?

 

A:  [9:31] I had no plan.  (laughter).  I like looked back, and I’m like, what was I thinking?  But – but yeah, I just wanted to kind of like get an idea of what was out there and basically find a town that I liked and stay and see how long I wanted to stay.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [9:45] And so you’re on the regular license wait list. How many more people have to retire?  I mean, it’s great that you’re next coming.  But I know there’s like the entry exit entry (inaudible).

 

A:  [9:56] Yeah.  Well, it’s – so living out on the island, it’s a little bit different.  So I’m on what they call a limited entry island wait list.  And so I’m on a wait list that is exclusively for this island.  So there’s still like a certain number of licenses that the island can hold.  So our number is 23.  And so basically there have to be – it’s a one-in one-out ratio.  But right now we’re at the number.  So we’re just kind of seeing what happens.  And people, I mean – I mean, it’s great.  But everybody wants to just fish until they croak.  So.  (laughter)

 

Q:  [10:39] People seem to hold on long.

 

A:  [10:42] Yeah.

 

Q:  [10:43] So you’re on the wait list.  And – for your lobster license, do you hold other – what other licenses or permits do you hold, including for your aquaculture program?

 

A:  [10:53] So I have a limited purpose aquaculture license, which isn’t technically a lease, but it’s a version of a lease pretty much.  And they’re just like one year sites that you – they don’t want me to call them leases, but I don’t know what else to call them – that you lease from the state for a year at a time. You can renew them for up to three years.  So I have that that permit right now.  And that’s how I grow my scallops is on that lease site.

 

Q:  [11:23] How big is your leased area?

 

A:  [11:26] Eight hundred square feet.  (laughter).  Yeah.  Yep.

 

Q:  [11:31] I guess mostly vertical (inaudible).

 

A:  [11:33] Yeah.  Yeah.  It’s just basically like a long line with nets hanging off of it.  So it’s just like one long 800 – well, it’s 400 feet, but yeah.

 

Q:  [11:43] And then in terms of your – in terms of lobstering, working with your dad, do you guys fish in shore? Offshore?  Both?

 

A:  [11:50] We fish both.  So, I mean closest in shore we fish is like right – right up on the shore.  And then for the south shore, we fish is like 12 miles offshore, which is like not that offshore, but it’s further off than the inshore people fish.  So.

 

Q:  [12:08] Do you own your own boat?

 

A:  [12:10] I do.  Well, I own a boat with my partner.  We bought a 32-foot Jarvis Newman.  And we purchased that in January of 2024.  So it’s a newer purchase for us.  And I use that for my scallop farm.  And my partner is a diver.  And he uses that for diving jobs.  And then we both are planning to get our lobster licenses at some point.  So we will use that boat when that happens too.

 

Q:  [12:40] All right.  So you both could use (inaudible) for that.

 

A:  [12:43] Yeah.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [12:45] Great.  And then in terms of – so what – I guess what got you interested in scalloping because it is rare to do that around here in (inaudible; overlapping dialogue).

 

A:  [12:53] Yeah.

 

Q:  [12:54] And yeah, how did that start for you?

 

A:  [12:57] Well, I was interested in doing something on top of lobstering that was also on the water.  Just because, you know, everybody’s kind of not sure about the future of the industry.  And I wanted to be involved.  I just – I feel like once I started working on the water, I was like, OK, I don’t want to do what I used to do ever again.  Like I want to just do this.  And I was interested in aquaculture, but I wasn’t really that interested in growing oysters just because there’s so many oyster farms now and mussels.  I’ve learned it’s like hard to make money growing mussels.  And then I read – I read this article in the New York Times about a scallop farmer in Stonington.  And I was like, huh, scallop farm.  Like I’ve never heard of that.  And so I looked up his farm.  I just Googled him.  And I got his phone number, and I called him.  And I was like, can I just come out for a day and I’ll just work on the farm.  I just want to see what it’s like.  And I’m interested in trying this.  And he was like, sure.  And he let me come out on the farm for a day.  And I saw the setup because I just couldn’t really visualize it.  And once I saw the setup, I was like, OK.  I can do this.  I’m going to try and do this.  (laughter)

 

Q:  [14:16] So one day out there and then you kind of put it in an application for –

 

A:  [14:18] Yeah.  So basically the way – what – what the scallop farmer that I was – that I visited recommended was to buy a spat collection license.  And spat is basically baby scallops.  So it’s just like a $75 license that you purchase from the state.  So I did that.  I set out spat collection bags around the time of the scallops spawn. Just – I just wanted to basically see if this was even like viable because if I can’t collect the spat, then I can’t grow scallops because there’s no hatchery in the state.  So I did that, and then it was an awesome collection.  I was super happy without – when I was not expecting it to go well.  So it was that was really great.  And then once I had the spat, that’s when I started my application process.  And I ended up selling a lot of the spat to another farmer in Midcoast. But now I have – this of my third year collecting spat now.  So yeah.

 

Q:  [15:24] And then – yeah, so I see on your website, you guys – you sell spat.  You sell spat to a few farms now, or most important ones.

 

A:  [15:30] Yeah, it’s most – it’s mostly been one this year.  I don’t know how many it’s going to be because he seemed to like get his limit.  But yeah, there’s not a ton of people doing this. So there’s not a ton of people buying spat.  But I’ve had like the Darling Marine Center buy spat for me.  I’m hoping they’ll be other people that are interested because I have way too much.  So.

 

Q:  [15:56] And then in terms of the scallops, like what – how many years have you grown them.  Like have you gotten into market-size scallops?

 

A:  [16:02] Yeah.

 

Q:  [16:06] And how many years do you grow yourself or kind of what does spat side of the business looks like.

 

A:  [16:08] Yeah.  So I have some two-year old scallops right now that are market size.  Yeah. Three years is what they say is like the full-grown scallop.  But the nice thing about scallop farming is that you can harvest the different sizes but you can’t harvest at for wild caught scallops.  So I can harvest what’s called a petite scallop.  And these are like one-and-a-half to two-year old scallops usually, depending on how long they’re taking to grow.  I was able to reach the petite size at one-and-a-half years, which was awesome.  So I do have some. I’m really going to start selling them next summer though. Yeah.

 

Q:  [16:48] And then who do you sell to now, or who do you think you’re going to sell it to like market-size scallops?

 

A:  [16:53] I’m really hoping to – I’d such – I have such a small operation because it’s just me.  I don’t have any employees.  So I’m literally just working after fishing or on my days off.  So it’s a small farm.  So I’m really hoping to keep it as local as possible.  I’d like to do like farm drops on the – on Little Cranberry, and just have people sign up for a weekly farm drop of scallops.  And then I’d like to just work with local restaurants doing more like specials than regular distribution just because – it’s just hard for me to get to our harbor once a week or wherever – Portland.  So yeah, that’s more what I’m thinking.  And then I have a couple that I’m friends with that has a catering company out here and they were like super interested in working with them.  So I want to work with them a lot.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [17:50] And then in terms of beyond capture fishing and aquaculture harvesting itself, we have some follow-up questions to see about your experience kind of in other kind of aspects of, you know, pre-harvest and post-harvest activities.  So do you have experience in bookkeeping, date or gear preparation?

 

A:  [18:13] I do have some bookkeeping experience.  I’ve been doing the bookkeeping for a nonprofit out here for the last two-and-a-half years.  I recently let that position go.  But I do have some experience in bookkeeping, although it is like so not my thing.  (laughter)

 

Q:  [18:32] Could you do it for your own – for your business, like for your farm?

 

A:  [18:37] Yeah, I’ve just started kind of doing that, selling merch and stuff, so now I’m trying to keep better track of my finances.  (laughter)  Yeah.

 

Q:  [18:44] And then there’s no bait for the scallop farm, but I imagine you work with bait in your role.

 

A:  [18:51] Oh, yeah.  Yeah, I mean, yeah.  That’s just the nice thing about the scallop farm.  I don’t have to buy feed, but yeah, I work with bait.

 

Q:  [19:00] And then gear preparation, probably both sides for capture fishing also (inaudible).

 

A:  [19:06] Yeah, I do a lot of gear work for my dad, just mending traps.  And if he buys like spec traps from the lot, we have to like, you know, change fence around and things like that.  And then for the scallop farm, I don’t have a ton of gear work to do, but it’s a lot of pressure washing.  A lot of cleaning nets.  And then sometimes I have to mend the nets if they rip or something.

 

Q:  [19:34] And you’re using lantern nets or –

 

A:  [19:37] I’m using mostly pearl nets.  And then I’m hoping to do some ear hanging.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [19:45] And then do you have any experience in kind of post-harvest processing, marketing or trade?

 

A:  [19:51] No, I do not.  (laughter)

 

Q:  [19:53] Although I guess for your own scallops and the spat, I mean, if you consider – you know, looking for customers and getting them products, that would probably apply on that side.

 

A:  [20:01] Yeah, I guess selling spat, I have had some experience.  But I think next summer will be the big post-market.

 

Q:  [20:10] I guess also for your scallops story, are you shucking?  Like if you do ca – or are you just kind of give people the whole scallop and the consumer (inaudible)?

 

A:  [20:19] With the LPA, I’m not allowed to harvest the – I have to shuck.  Once I apply for a standard lease and get approved, then I can sell the whole scallop, but with the type of LPA that I have, I have to shuck.

 

Q:  [20:35] You get to do that seasonally to work for your dad.

 

A:  [20:38] Yeah.

 

Q:  [20:39] OK.

 

A:  [20:40] Yeah.

 

Q:  [20:41] Interesting.

 

M:  [20:42] I don’t realize there’s a difference between the LPA and the (inaudible).

 

A:  [20:43] Yeah.

 

Q:  [20:45] And then how about in terms of kind of advocacy or community-based organizations related to fisheries?

 

A:  [20:51] I don’t really have much experience with it, no.

 

Q:  [20:59] And then any experience and sort of research and development side around aquaculture or fishing?

 

A:  [21:06] I mean, I don’t – I’m interested in it, and I’ve definitely spoken with a lot of people from Maine Sea Grant and Darling Marine Center.  I took a class on – called “Aquaculture and Shared Waters.”  So I have done my own research, but I have not really been involved in any research.

 

Q:  [21:27] How was your experience with aquaculture in Shared Waters program?

 

A:  [21:30] It was good.  I mean, I think – because I’m farming scallops, and there are so few people doing it, I think it was – and ended up being a lot of material that I had already read online.  But I think as the years go on, somebody farming scallops, that would be a great class to take.  But it was just so new when I took that class that it was mostly about oysters.  Which is great.  But–

 

M:  [22:04] (inaudible).

 

A:  [22:05] Yeah.

 

Q:  [22:07] And then also, do you have any experience in working in hatcheries of any kind and fisheries?

 

A:  [22:12] No.  Not at all.  No.

 

Q:  [22:15] And then what about in terms of like food service?  Kind of food customer interface on the seafood sort of focus, or –

 

A:  [22:23] Yeah, I waited tables at the Islesford Dock Restaurant for nine years, so I had a lot of experience serving seafood.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [22:31] Great.  And I know it’s going to be a hard question for a small business owner, but – if you could take us through, like what does an average day of work look like for you?  And maybe that like at different seasons, like –

 

A:  [22:44] Yeah.

 

Q:  [22:45] Yeah.

 

A:  [22:46] Well, it depends, I guess, on what-– what exactly I’m working on that day.  I am lobstering in the summer, four or five days a week.  We leave at 5.30, get back around 2:00 or 1:30.  If the weather is really nice, then I’ll probably go out to the farm for a couple hours and work on the farm.  If it’s not nice, I probably won’t.  And then if I have a day off from fishing, then I’ll go to the farm early.  I’ll leave – I mean, not as early as I would for lobstering, but I’ll go out to the farm and I’ll spend probably six to eight hours on the farm just thinning nets and doing stocking density and hopefully harvesting more soon.  In the spring time, when I am starting to go through my spat bags, that’s just like a lot of scooping tiny scallops into nets.  And that takes a really long time to get through all those. But yeah, and then once I get into the winter season, I stop fishing usually around Christmas time.  And then the scallops will pretty much not grow all winter because the water’s so cold.  So I don’t have to do much for the scallops. In the winter I check on the line every once in a while and just make sure everything looks good.  But I’m not really sorting nets or anything in the winter.  So it’s my nap time.

 

Q:  [24:29] And is there any like sinking – you don’t sink gear?

 

A:  [24:33] I don’t sink gear yet.  It’s all in nets.  So I don’t have to do any of that.  But it’s nerve racking with the way the storms were last winter.  I was like, well, maybe they’ll just not be there like.  (laughter)  There’s lots of snow.

 

Q:  [24:48] Yeah, could you talk a little bit about – did the storms impact your farm?

 

A:  [24:53] It didn’t.  I mean, I don’t know how, but it did not.  I have a friend with an oyster farm who lost a few cages.  But luckily, the direction of the wind during those big storms was in favor of my farm site.  So.

 

Q:  [25:17] So how far –

 

A:  [25:18] Yeah.

 

Q:  [25:19] Could you describe what kind of – you’d say like how far is it from the dock and how – what kind of environment is it in?

 

A:  [25:23] It is about 400 feet from the shore off of Sutton Island.  It’s in a little cove.  And it’s about – I have two separate LPAs.  And they’re each 200-foot long lines.  So they’re just kind of like straight lines, 15 feet below the surface, all the nets hang off of them.  But scallops have to be grown in a protected area.  Anyways, that’s kind of part of the criteria of what I was looking for, because they get seasick in wave motion, like too much wave motion.  Yeah, which is like ridiculous.  (laughter)

 

Q:  [26:09] I’ve heard they’re more sensitive than like the oyster, but I haven’t heard that yet.

 

A:  [26:15] Yeah, they’re way more sensitive.  Yeah.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [26:20] Yeah.  That’s really interesting.

 

A:  [26:22] Yeah.

 

Q:  [26:23] Different question.  How do you feel your background or identity shapes your work in the fishing sector, including how others perceive or treat you?  And that could be any – any – or many aspects of your identity in background?

 

A:  [26:38] I think my lineage really helps me.  I think a lot of people probably wouldn’t have pictured me doing what I’m doing.  My – my first job on a boat, I got because my dad knew a guy.  And he was like, well.  And then when I got on the boat, he was like, we’ll just see how it goes.  We’re not going to promise anything.  It was like very like – and this was a guy I had known since I was like a baby.  So he was, you know, he was like, OK, I think he was a little nervous to take me out.  Make sure everything, you know, the safety and everything.  But I think for the most part, I’ve been treated really well, which is really nice.  I don’t think that’s everybody’s experience, but I think that has a lot to do with my family.  I’m being such a big part of the fishery in the island.  And it’s like half my family is working there.  So that’s nice.  I mean, when I was fishing out of Northeast Harbor, I definitely got like some little like dumb comments about like, oh, cute sternman or whatever, you know?  Just little things like that.  But for the most part, I feel like people have been really respectful and taken me seriously, which is nice and maybe not what I expected.  So yeah, I think – I don’t know what my experience would be if I didn’t have the fishing lineage, but I’ve had a pretty positive experience.  So, yeah.

 

Q:  [28:16] And then, do you notice any – since you are active in both kind of the capture of fishing side and aquaculture, I don’t know how much you feel like those communities are similar or different or you’re with them all the time.  Yeah.

 

A:  [28:27] They’re so different.  Yeah, they’re so different.  I went to an aquaculture conference in Providence last winter, and I was like, wow, these people are so different than the fishing community.  I mean, it’s just like night and day.  And it’s just the aquaculture group is just so much more diverse than the fishing group.  And I think a big part of why is because it’s so hard to get a lobster license.  And there are a lot more women on the wait list than there have ever been, but the wait list takes so long that it’s like all these women on the wait list have been waiting like 15 years to get their license.  So there’s like, I think, 4% of the state’s licenses are women.  And now it’s like, well, all these women who want to do it, they have to wait so long to do it, that it’s hard to even diversify the lobster industry, at least for captains.  So it’s just a totally different group.  There’s so many women doing aquaculture and like, I don’t know very many female captains.  So.

 

Q:  [29:41] Do you think that like crew side is a little more di – has diversified more.

 

A:  [29:45] I definitely think the crew is diversified.  Yeah, I know a lot more women on Mount Desert Island who are crew.  And now there’s a few more women that are crew on Little Cranberry too, which is great.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [30:01] And how does your role in the fishing aquaculture sector work with any family commitments or caregiving responsibilities you have, including if you don’t have them now, like future plans for those.

 

A:  [30:13] Well, I mean, for me, because my family’s so involved in fishing, I – and my partner fishes too.  It’s like, OK, we’re all in the same schedule pretty much.  But yeah, I mean, I don’t know if I’ll have kids, but that it’s definitely something like, what am I going to put them in a car seat on the engine box?  Like, I’m not really sure how that would work because I am not interested in giving up my career.   So yeah, that would definitely complicate things.  If I decided to have a kid, they’d have to pull the gloves up and get in the bait, I guess.  (laughter)  But yeah.

 

Q:  [30:56] Have you seen – I’m just curious in the community out here.  Have you seen any women who work in the sector who would do that?

 

A:  [31:04] I was.  Yeah, there’s I was not born when this was happening, but this woman, Stephanie Ali, she and her husband both were fishermen and she did exactly that.  She brought her kid in a car seat and sat on the engine box and they just snapped and she hauled, and I just think it’s awesome.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [31:32] Now shifting to kind of focusing sort of on environmental changes, you kind of noticed in your time living out here and kind of being a part of industry.  Can you describe like what some of those environmental changes are that you might have noticed in the marine environment over time?

 

A:  [31:48] Yeah, I mean, from my time in lobstering, I can’t say I’ve noticed a significant difference.  I’ve only been really, you know, consistent – consistently lobstering for five years and every year has just been so different.  It’s just like every year, the shed happens at a different time. and it’s just been so different every year.  So I haven’t noticed like any kind of general pattern with that.  Just from living out here, you know, my whole life, I’ve definitely noticed like a difference in like the tidal creatures that we have.  Like, you know, I remember getting off the Mailboat and the pilings would just be like covered in sea stars and now you like never see them.  And then we used to be able to like pick mussels off the beach, and now there’s like no mussels on the beach.  So I’ve noticed little things like that.  And then I also, the storms that we had last winter, that was really – it was just a really crazy experience for all of us out here just because.  I mean, I think it was crazy for everybody on the coast, but we just rely on so many of the infrastructures on the water out here.  It’s like, I don’t think there’s a single family out here that’s not impacted by like the fishing co-op.  And just like watching everything go underwater, like all the docks go underwater and like buildings fall into the water, and we’re all just like, wow, is this the new – is this what winter is going to look like now?  Or is this just like a one-off crazy storm that just had like the perfect wind direction matched up with like king tides?  Just kind of wicking to see what happens this winter to see if this is just like what we’re dealing with now.

 

Q:  [33:46] You mentioned your farm was spared from luckily impacts of the storm, but can you talk about, yeah, like the co-op, what the working water frame, infrastructure here on the island, like how was that impacted by it specifically?

 

A:  [33:57] Yeah, we had – so our wood dock was – there was a couple planks on the town dock that were kind of like cock-eyed after the storm and needed to be refastened.  And then our steps going down to the Mailboat that everybody uses to get on and off the Mailboat, they needed to be tweaked a little bit.  The co-op luckily was like pretty much unfazed by it, which was like, yeah, it was very surprising.  And then the restaurant dock, which is right next to the co-op, that had the worst damage.  They had to like rebuild the – half of the walkway that comes from the land out to the restaurant, and then their office building fell into the ocean.  And it, I mean, the water just came up so much higher than we’ve ever seen it come up before.  And then it also washed out an entire road on the backside of the island.  And then it washed out another road on the west side of the island.  So, yeah, that was – it was – yeah, it was crazy and we still haven’t recovered from it.  And we still have like what we call the Islesford Canyon on the west side of the island.  Um, and that still floods every king tide.  But, yeah, I don’t know.

 

Q:  [35:34] Do you have those (inaudible)?  Not all the roads have been (inaudible).

 

A:  [35:39] One of the roads was repaired, but it’s a privately owned road.  So there’s only one house that’s at the end of the road.  And so like a half mile long road and they had to pay out-of-pocket for that to be fixed.  And then, the other road is also on private property, but it’s a big deal because our electricity for the island comes in at the end of that road.  And so no trucks can get down that road.  So if we have a – some kind of problem with our box where our electricity comes in, the trucks can’t get down the road.  So they have to be able to either walk with all their equipment to the end of the road or they just can’t get there.  So we’re waiting on disaster relief money to fix that road, which will be really important to do before the winter. Because we have at least a few multi-day power outages a year in the winter.  So, yeah.

 

Q:  [36:42] And then, in terms of scallop farmer, I just – circling back to something you mentioned earlier, just seeing if you feel like it fits kind of in this topic of marine environment and change.  We mentioned power washing your gear.  So it sucks about biofouling or biofouling.  I know you haven’t been scallop farming for very long, but do you feel like that’s related to kind of changes going on in the marine environment or –

 

A:  [37:11] I actually even really pleasantly surprised by the amount of biofouling I’ve had.  But I think that’s just in comparison to farm – the two farms that I’ve seen that are south of me.  And they’re in warmer water and they’re more.  Where – we just are so much more exposed.  And there, they’re all like up in these little islands, and the water so much warmer and species up.  And the amount of like sea squirts that I was seeing on their nets, I was like floored.  And I have not seen a single one on my nets.  So I mean, it could just be a matter of time until I start experiencing that, but right now, I’m not experiencing that at all.  I’m just getting seaweed, which is fine.  I can deal with that.

 

Q:  [37:55] Are you a deeper water – is it a deeper water site or it’s just cooler here because of the latitude?

 

A:  [38:05] I think we all have similar depths. You kind of look for 60 feet. That’s kind of the goal.  But I think it’s just the difference in the water temperature. I mean, in the winter, the water temperature here is like in the low 40s.  And then in the summer – like right now is probably one of the warmest times the year for the water.  And it’s like maybe 60.  And I don’t know what they’re seeing in Midcoast, but I know in Portland it’s more like 70.  And I think that makes a big difference.

 

Q:  [38:40] And then, yeah, so that’s interesting.  So it’s mostly seaweeds.  How often do you have to clean your gear to get that off and what does that look like?  They bring it back to shore.  I think I see them at the power wash.

 

A:  [38:52] Yeah.  Yeah.  I have power washed my nets.  If I put them in the water, say in like September, I’ll power wash them in the spring. And they’re really not that dirty after spending the winter because there’s just not a lot going on in the water when the water’s so cold.  And then I’ll probably need to power wash them again sometime mid-summer because then it to the growth just like is exponential with like kelp and everything.  But it’s mostly like twice a year for now.

 

Q:  [39:26] And then the scallop itself.  Is it getting biofouled?  And do you have to remove that?

 

A:  [39:34] Yeah, they get some biofouling.  I mean, the more I do my stocking density, the less biofouling I get, but I don’t get to do it as much as I should.  So I definitely am getting more like – I actually don’t even really know what they are, but they’re similar to sea squirts, but I know they’re not sea squirts.  And they grow on the scallops and I’ll just peel them off when I am doing stocking density, but I haven’t noticed anything too crazy if I don’t wait too long to sort.  So.

 

Q:  [40:15] And when you say stocking density, you mean as they grow, sort of need to be a lower density on –

 

A:  [40:21] Yeah, because I’ll originally stock them when they’re babies, like 500 scallops per net. And then I go all the way down to 20.  And then from 20 I go to 10.  And then once I’m at 10, they’re close to market size.  And if I want to keep growing them to be the full-grown size, I’ll do five per net.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [40:45] And so it seems like the main kind of impact just in your life out here is on the infrastructure and the kind of risk of storms.

 

A:  [40:55] Yeah.

 

Q:  [40:57] Is there anything else you can think of that you want to mention in terms of kind of changes in the marine environment you’ve noticed in your life out here kind of in your fishing career?

 

A:  [41:06] Yeah, I mean, I have like worries.  It’s not things that I’ve noticed yet.  I mean, I definitely worry about like the general population of lobster just continuing to move north.  I mean, we’ve seen it happening.  I mean, Long Island use to be a great place to lobster.  Now there’s like no lobster in there.  And then Massachusetts.  And there’s even less lobster in there now.  And even now Southern Maine we’re starting to see like a big decrease in numbers. So it’s just it kind of feels like it’s a matter of time, but I’m just hoping that it’s slower than we think.  And then sea scallops are temperamental and they have certain temperatures that they thrive in.  And then once it hits a certain temperature, they’re not happy anymore.  So I think at least where I’m located on the coast, I’ll have a lot more time than say somebody in Southern Maine would.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [42:17] But you’re just concerned about that uncertainty for the future for capture fishing and I guess pretty diverse stuff in the scallop farm (inaudible).

 

A:  [42:29] Yeah, yeah.

 

Q:  [42:30] Yeah.  So as you kind of mentioned, everyone in like every household out here seemingly has a tie to the co-op elite.

 

A:  [42:38] Pretty much.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [42:43] Yeah.  Are – is there anything you feel – I mean, we don’t have as many examples it seems like, which is great, of things personally impacting you and your work in the sector as much, but I guess just to ask the question. Do you have anything that you’d like to try or that you’ve been able to try to kind of help adapt to kind of cope to the chain cope with the changes that are happening out here?

 

A:  [43:09] I mean, I haven’t been experiencing any changes that are directly like I need to do something to combat this within my work.  I mean, that’s definitely something that I think will come up like the idea of water temperature warming like maybe that means I’m going to have to start growing scallops and bottom cages eventually because the water’s colder down there, you know.  But, as of right now, I don’t feel like I’m at that place yet, but it’s definitely in the back of my mind thinking about like, how I’m going to adapt to these changes when they come.  So.

 

Q:  [43:52] Relatively, and maybe you want to repeat something you’ve already mentioned earlier, but to pose the question, kind of what is your biggest concern about the marine environment for the future of Maine coastal fisheries and aquaculture industry?

 

A:  [44:05] I mean, yeah, that’s a big question.  I think the hardest part is – I mean, obviously it’s just like devastating for the environment if all of these like things that make Maine, Maine are just like gone.  But I also just think it’s really devastating for the people who do it.  I think like a lot of people have jobs that are just jobs and it’s like, you know, they do – they make ends meet and that’s that.  But I don’t really know any lobstermen that aren’t like lobstermen to the core.  Like that is what they are.  It’s not their job.  It’s what they do.  Like it’s who they are.  And I think that Maine could, at least the coast, could see a really massive depression.  I mean, it’s just financially and just personally, there’s so many people that are affected by the fishery and I just – I personally can’t picture life without it, because it’s just been such a big part of my life, and my family’s life, and everybody on the island and everybody on the coast.  So yeah, I just think it would be devastating if we didn’t have the fishery.  And I think a lot of the law instrument are not sure what’s going to get them first, the regulations or the environmental factors.  So it just kind of feels like very –  everything feels very uncertain.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [45:45] And if you could tell policymakers in Maine what some of the biggest priorities should be to kind of help people kind of adapt to and cope with these changes that are maybe coming.  What would you tell them?

 

A:  [46:02] I was to tell policymakers.  I don’t – I mean, I don’t know.  I don’t know what I would tell them.  I just – I feel like the researcher, the science – lobster scientists at the DMR, I think do a really good job and they are very focused on keeping the population healthy.  And I think that I have no problems with – with the science that they’re presenting.  It just feels like a problem that is not even something a policymaker can do anything about. It’s like – yeah, I don’t know.  I mean, if it’s if we’re talking just environmental factors, I – I don’t know.  Yeah.

 

Q:  [47:10] Big question.

 

A:  [47:11] Yeah.

 

Q:  [47:12] Have you participated in any climate resilience or adaptation – adaptation like trainings or programs for kind of fisheries or aquaculture?

 

A:  [47:21] I haven’t.  I was in talks with Island Institute for a little while about the possibility of an electric motor.  But when they described what they were thinking of and I described what I was going to need for infrastructure, it just didn’t match up.  But I’m definitely really interested in making my – both of my businesses for lobstering and scallop farming as sustainable as possible.  I was talking with a woman who grows mushroom buoys and was hoping to get some of those to test out.  And I’m hoping to incorporate some solar panels on my boat to run my hose, which is like basically all I use all day.  So instead of running my boat with the diesel engine, I could just use a solar pump.  And so, I’m not really directly involved with any, you know, nonprofits or anything like that.  But I definitely have personal changes that I’d like to make in my businesses that could make them greener.

 

Q:  [48:30] Yeah.  And now I see kind of an the answer to this next question.  But what strategies do you think would be effective in building kind of resilience against kind of – kind of really impacts for fisheries or making fisheries kind of more sustainable?

 

A:  [48:44] Yeah, I – how do I want to say this.  I think there’s two different types of fishermen. There’s the smaller, closer in shore kind of fishing.  Less traps and – I’m trying to figure out the way I want to say this.  And then there’s offshore, fishermen bigger boats, burning more diesel, buying more bait, you know, going through traps more quickly, going through boats more quickly.  I personally just, I mean, my uncle has owned the same Astro (sp?) for 50 years and it has done everything he’s needed to do.  I’m not saying everybody has to do that, but I just think that there are certain approaches on how you can go about fishing where there’s like, you can do everything you need to do to live comfortably or you can do the max amount.  And I just think that there’s been like a slight change in the way people fish since like my dad was growing up.  People are more intense and, you know, flipping boats and, you know, fishing traps were two years and then buying new traps.  And I just think there are more sustainable ways to go about it. I mean, my dad’s traps are sometimes all patches, which is a little much, but – but I just think that there are less wasteful ways to go about it that can make the fishery really sustainable.  But, yeah.

 

Q:  [50:40] I’m trying to think – that’s great, but – and how do you think maybe shifting to the aquaculture side, when you see the role of aquaculture, like scallops and other things like in that sort of picture of kind of climate resilience for the industry in the future?

 

A:  [50:54] Yeah, I mean – aquaculture, I kind of split it into two categories.  There’s like the fin-fish aquaculture and then there’s bivalve aquaculture.  And I would put kelp aquaculture in the same category.  But I think that bivalve aquaculture and, you know, any kind of sea vegetable aquaculture are net positives for the environment.  You’re bringing in these creatures that can do incredible things.  You know, a scallop can filter 95 gallons of water a day and they sequester carbon to help strengthen their shells.  I mean, it’s just like there’s not a lot of proteins that you can grow or, you know, farm that are actually having a positive impact on the environment that they’re in.  So I think that’s something that’s really special about bivalve aquaculture.  You’re never inputting any kind of feeder fertilizer into the water, which is amazing. They’re just filtering off of – they’re filter feeding off of the water that is just naturally bare.  Yeah, I just – I don’t see a lot of negatives with it, which, which is really great.  I mean, the only negative I can think of with my businesses, is like I burn a half gallon of diesel a day, which is like, I guess it could be none, but I think that’s pretty good.  So.

 

Q:  [52:23] Great.  Thank you.  And we were kind of focusing on environmental changes, but are there any other types of changes that are like not environmental that you can think of that are impacting your work that you want to tell us about.

 

A:  [52:34] I mean, there’s a lot of regulatory changes in the lobstering industry that have to do with different things. Some – some are put in place to help protect the lobster population.  Like there’s a measure change coming up that was just delayed from January to July.  So they’re going to increase the minimum by a 16th of an inch, which sounds like it wouldn’t make that big of a difference, but it’s going to make a really big difference.  I am not opposed to that.  It’s just really going to change the way that people fish.  There essentially won’t be much of a spring fishery, just because a lot of the lobsters that we catch in the spring are like jump before they shed.  So that change is coming. We’ve had a lot of changes that we’ve had to make to our gear because of right whale regulations.  So we’ve had to implement weak links or breakaways in our ropes that break at 1700 pounds.  So if there’s an entanglement, supposedly the rope will snap and it will help free the whale from the entanglement.  I mean, I think a lot of us in the coast of Maine are struggling with all the right whale regulations because, I mean, I’ve seen plenty of whales.  I’ve never seen a right whale.  My dad has been fishing for 50 years.  He’s never seen a right whale.  If you track like – if you go on the websites where they’re tracking their migratory paths, they’re going through the Gulf of Maine, but it’s so much further offshore than the fishing grounds that it’s just really hard to continue to spend the money, to modify gear, to buy different types of rope, to buy these weak links, and then spend the time inserting the weak links.  And then they’re talking about ropeless gear and – oh, the average lobster trap, just a normal lobster trap is close to $200 now. And then they – this ropeless gear would be more like $1,200 a trap.  It’s like – that tanks the business immediately, spending $1,200 on a trap.  You just can’t do that.  And then there’s just a bunch of factors with the ropeless gear that don’t even logically make sense.  I think a lot of – There’s a big disconnect between the technology that’s being designed and people who have actually spent time on the water lobstering.  So it’s – I think, between all of those regulations and then proposed windmill sites that are in like prime fishing grounds, it’s just like there’s a lot there that is threatening the fishery.

 

Q:  [55:23] Are there things you or your dad, the license holder or your partner in his business like, have you guys been able to kind of cope with or adapt to those regulatory changes?  Or is it – fell like there’s not much you can do about it.

 

A:  [55:37] I mean, we just kind of have to do what they’re telling us to do if we want to continue to fish.  And that’s fine.  We’ve put weak links in all of our ropes and changed the way, you know, we’ve got to have sinking rope at the top and floating rope on the bottom.  And then in certain areas, you have to have sinking rope connecting each trap and then certain areas you need floating rope connecting each trap.  So I think mostly lobstermen have just done what they’ve been told to do because if they don’t, then they lose their license.  And it’s like, well, you have no option then you have to do what you’re being told to do.  I think the vertical line reductions that have been proposed.  If – if what they’re proposing actually goes through, but yeah, that’ll be a huge change for fishermen.  And I don’t see how it’s possible for all the people who have licenses to continue fishing if the reductions that they want to take are in place.

 

Q:  [56:45] And shifting gears a little bit.  Have you noticed any like positive changes or opportunities that you’ve noticed or experienced in the fisheries or aquaculture industry over time?

 

A:  [56:57] I mean, in the aquaculture industry, the scallop farming is so new people are super excited about it, which is awesome.  It’s like, oh, I can have fresh scallops in the summer now.  Like that’s never happened before.  So that’s really exciting.  And it’s just kind of a different product than the wild caught scallops because they’re – you can harvest the petites, which I really like.  And that’s what I’d like to focus on.  So there’s a lot of opportunity with the scallop aquaculture, I think.  And people are just, I’m really happy with the responses I’ve gotten about it.  Lobster industry.  I mean, I have not noticed a big downturn.  To me, that’s positive.  (laughter)  Any year where we’re still doing what we’ve been doing for the last five years, that’s great.  I’m just happy that things have kind of stayed where they have been at.  I don’t think that’s true for the rest of the coast, but I think Southern Maine is not seeing that.  But I am hoping that the size of the business I plan to have lobstering is just small enough that if things do go south in the next 10 years, I’ll have it paid off and it’ll be OK.  And I’ll have to pivot into something else.  But yeah.

 

Q:  [58:25] And then we’ve kind of talked about this maybe a little bit earlier, but have you noticed any changes in women’s presence, participation or status in fisheries, meaning both captured fishing and aquaculture over time?

 

A:  [58:38] Yeah, I mean, growing up out here, there was one woman captain who was a member of the co-op, and – but she was the only one.  And every once in a while, my dad would have a woman work on the boat with him, and you’d see a woman at the co-op on the stern every once in a while.  And now it seems like every summer there’s at least two female sternmen at the co-op, which is really cool to see.  And I’m meeting a lot more people on Mount Desert Island who are also sterning, or in a similar situation to me where they’re on a wait list waiting to get their license.  So I just hope that – I hope that all these women get the opportunity to do what all these guys have been doing forever.  I mean, my dad just had to pay a hundred bucks and he got a license.  That was it.  I mean, he didn’t have to wait or do anything.  You know?  So I just hope that we’ll get that opportunity too.  So.

 

Q:  [59:39] And then in terms of aquaculture, you kind of mentioned this earlier, just the rates. It looks different (inaudible; overlapping dialogue).

 

A:  [59:47] Yeah, yeah.  I mean, a lot of the people I know who have – well, mostly oyster farms, because I mostly see oyster farms, are women, which is really cool.  I don’t know what the exact statistics are, but I know it’s much closer to 50/50 than lobstering is.  And then I think it’s cool.  Like a lot of the women I know who have oyster farms have all female crews too, which is really cool.  Because I just don’t think that women are really encouraged to work on the water.  So I don’t even think it’s like something – at least for me, it was like not even something I thought about.  And I’m surrounded by it.  I just didn’t have the – I mean, my dad would take me out to haul my five traps, but it was more of like, you know, we’re – I was a kid and we were doing this thing together.  But I think a lot of sons of fishermen are like, yeah, let’s get you a boat and let’s get you traps.  And let’s really try and do the student program, whereas I don’t think that the daughters of fishermen are getting that same kind of like, yeah, let’s do this thing.  And so I just think that when you’re not, you know, seeing examples of women on the water, it’s not even a thought, because I didn’t even think about it.

 

Q:  [1:01:08] Yeah, I just think about what other like, peers of yours, or young women you knew growing up, like, yeah, do you think a lot of women didn’t go into it, like you haven’t (inaudible) or –

 

A:  [1:01:18] Yeah, I mean, I went to high school with a lot of girls whose parents – whose fathers were fishermen, and a couple of them did go into it.  But I just – it’s such a like, father-to-son thing that – I mean, I think if I had expressed more interest as like an eight-year-old, maybe my dad would have been more like, yeah, let’s get you a boat and 50 traps.  But it was – I was not that interested at the time and just didn’t see that for myself.  I think just when I see other women out there, it just makes me feel like, all right, cool.  We’re getting this done, like, it’s not just a couple of us anymore.  There’s a lot more of us now.  So, yeah.  And a lot of the captains have said, way more reliable, works way harder, talks back a lot less.  So – (laughter)

 

Q:  [1:02:18] Really?

 

A:  [1:02:19] Yeah.

 

Q:  [1:02:21] Wow, I’ve heard that one yet.

 

A:  [1:02:23] Yeah.

 

Q:  [1:02:25] And our last question for you is, what is your hopeful vision for the future of Maine coastal fisheries and aquaculture.

 

A:  [1:02:32] I mean, I just really hope that if we can keep fishing, I hope that all the lobster men are able to see, you know, from the perspective of the lobster scientists and the perspective of the lobster men combined, that we need to preserve the population and save it for future generations.  And we also need to be more mindful of what we’re doing, day to day, to make our operations greener.  And I really hope that the fishery can continue indefinitely.  I mean, that’s a very hopeful vision.  And then with the aquaculture industry, I think that we’re just going to see it boom.  I think there’s just going to be a huge uptick in aquaculture.  I think that’s just kind of inevitable with the wild populations doing their thing naturally.  I think that aquaculture is just going to explode, which is good too.  But it’s not just like an inverse relationship where they’re – yeah.

 

Q:  [1:03:49] And do you think those can be sort of in partnership or could be sort of in tension with each other, or –

 

A:  [1:03:55] Yeah, I haven’t talked to any scallopers, the wild fishering scallopers, really about what their thoughts are on it.  I guess I could see it being in competition, but there’s going to be many, many years until it’s in competition.  (laughter)  It’s like – this many, you know, so few scallops farmed that are available for harvest and way, way, way more wild caught.  And they’re a lot cheaper wild caught than they are farmed.  So, yeah.

 

Q:  [1:04:26] Is there, lastly, just, is there anything else you wanted to share with us on this interview?

 

A:  [1:04:31] I don’t think so.  No.

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