Galen Koch: [00:00:00] Today is November 30th, and we’re at Priscilla Payne’s house in Windham. I’ll have you introduce yourself again and tell me how you learned about the Land Trust.

Priscilla Payne: [00:00:09] Well, I’m Priscilla Payne, and I’ve lived here in Windham since 2004. I literally only knew one person, and that was Margaret Pinchbeck. She brought her little girl to the story hour at the Gray Public Library, where I was director. She said, “Well, you live in Windham. You should join the Land Trust.” So, I waited a while, and then I thought, “Well, that must be a nice group of people and a way to get connected to the community.” So, I went to a meeting, and the rest is history. [laughter]

GK: [00:00:51] Had you heard anything about what the Land Trust was doing before you –? Did you know what you were getting into?

PP: [00:01:00] Well, I didn’t know totally. But there was a time when the Windham Land Trust [WLT] had difficulty with the town council – a couple of members – and they really painted a poor picture of the Land Trust. Unfortunately, Margaret was one of the people that got hurt the most. We managed to improve the image of the Land Trust, but fundraising was difficult. It was a difficult time for us, but we wrote grants, and we did things like water quality testing and stuff that they had never been involved in before. So, they asked me to be president. [laughter]

GK: [00:01:51] Oh my goodness.

PP: [00:01:53] I was a novice at land trust work, but we did some good things. I think we really improved the image of the Windham Land Trust.

GK: [00:02:05] Yeah. How did you go about doing that? What was some of the work that you did?

PP: [00:02:11] Well, we communicated more with people outside of the Land Trust to let them know what we were doing. We had a couple of fundraising dinners that brought the community together, and we did – getting messed up here.

GK: [00:02:40] Don’t worry. You can take your time. No rush.

PP: [00:02:47] We tried to have articles in the newspaper, and I think we presented ourselves as a group. They knew that we were water quality testing, and they liked that because everybody is concerned about the water; it goes into the Presumpscot River. So, there was a team of us that went out on Saturday mornings and did that.

GK: [00:03:13] That was all volunteer work.

PP: [00:03:17] Yes, it was all volunteer. The equipment that we needed was donated, just on a short-term basis, and we wrote several grants that we got to help us out with expenses.

GK: [00:03:37] What was your background? I mean, did you have experience that helped you be the president of a land trust?

PP: [00:03:45] No, I was a library director, so I had experience in managing people and helping people with research on different types of things. I had written grants for the library, so I had some things to offer to the group. But I didn’t have a lot of experience land trust-wise, and over the years, I have learned so much. It’s been so valuable to me as a person.

GK: [00:04:23] Yeah, that’s wonderful. Before we go into what you’ve learned, you joined in 2004, right?

PP: [00:04:37] That was when I first moved here. I think I joined in 2007. It was working with a wonderful group of people, and we seemed to all get along. That was really my introduction to the town of Windham because I didn’t really know much about the town when I moved here. So, it was good.

GK: [00:05:08] You met a bunch of people when you became involved.

PP: [00:05:10] I did. Yeah.

GK: [00:05:13] How long did it take for you to be in a leadership position?

PP: [00:05:19] It didn’t take very long [laughter] because nobody else really wanted to do it. They’d been running the Land Trust for quite a while, and I think they were, at that point in time, discouraged with how things were going. We managed to bring on a couple of new people that had brought new ideas to the group. I had been reading about water quality testing and was excited to see if we could do it. We did get a grant for that.

GK: [00:05:58] That’s great. Did you do that for many years, the water quality testing?

PP: [00:06:06] We did it for about three years, I believe. I think we stopped just before the merger.

GK: [00:06:16] Okay. How long were you involved with either land trust? How long did your involvement go on? I mean, I guess you’re still kind of involved.

PP: [00:06:27] Well, yeah, I’m on the advisory council. Well, I started in 2007 with the Windham Land Trust, and then, of course, we merged – I think it was in 2015, and I became involved there. After the merger, I became co-president with Tamara Pinard.

GK: [00:06:55] You were co-president. Would that have been after Mike?

PP: [00:07:02] I was after Mike. Yes.

GK: [00:07:05] Great. I’m getting all my ducks in a row. I talked to Mike today. I’ll talk to Tamara tomorrow.

PP: [00:07:13] Oh, good. Yeah. Mike is a great guy. He used to drive me to meetings because I don’t do well driving at night or in bad weather. So, he would always call and say, “Do you want me to pick you up tonight?” [laughter]

GK: [00:07:28] Oh, that’s great.

PP: [00:07:29] Yeah, he was great.

GK: [00:07:31] Yeah. It seems like a nice community of people to spend time with.

PP: [00:07:33] It is.

GK: [00:07:37] Can you tell me what some of the highlights were for you? I mean, it’s a long time, so I’m sure there’s quite a few.

PP: [00:07:45] Well, with the Windham Land Trust, some of the highlights were getting grants that allowed us to do things that they hadn’t done before. With Presumpscot Regional Land Trust, there are so many highlights. The merger was one. That was very, very important, I think, for the Windham Land Trust because I don’t think we could have survived. I met with Rachelle and Mike to first explore that possibility, and we just hit it off. We worked together very well to have the merger come about. Then we’ve done so much in the time that Rachelle became director in adding properties and hiring a land steward like Toby Jacobs, who’s wonderful. Each property that we’ve been able to acquire. Each one has been special. When it was Windham Land – I’m rambling here.

GK: [00:09:13] No, you’re not. This is wonderful.

PP: [00:09:15] When it was Windham Land Trust, a property in Gorham was given to us; it was named Frog Hollow Farm. That was my first real attachment to a property. Unfortunately, it’s not being used now because it requires a lot of maintenance, but I just love that property. That, of course, was transferred to Presumpscot when the merger came. Then, the Pride Preserve in Westbrook – that’s a special place for me because I knew the family that donated the land. I was the campaign fundraising chair, and it was a successful fundraiser. [laughter] I’m proud of that because the family really wanted the property preserved, and we were able to make it happen, and it’s a great property.

GK: [00:10:45] I’m sure you get an attachment to these places.

PP: [00:10:48] Yes, you do. Even the properties that we had acquired as Windham Land Trust – I mean, Black Brook; I love that property. They become personal to you. It’s like you have a real ownership in them.

GK: [00:11:20] That makes sense to me. The highlights of Presumpscot Regional Land Trust – you were the president of that with Tamara. Can you walk me through what was happening when you were in that position?

PP: [00:11:38] Well, one of the things that I think was really important was we set up – the board of directors got set up with some committees, and so a committee was able to focus on one type of thing. We had a retreat, I remember, where we did strategic planning, and I think that was a big help to [move] the organization forward. Rachelle was excellent at leading us through that.

GK: [00:12:19] How did that kind of change your –? Did it change your thinking about anything?

PP: [00:12:24] Well, because we had such open discussion around so many issues, I began to get a sense of where people were going, where they were thinking. It was a cooperative thing. There wasn’t any fighting or anything like that; it was really everybody working for the good of the organization to move it forward.

GK: [00:12:56] That’s wonderful. I’m jumping around, too, but that’s okay.

PP: [00:12:58] That’s okay.

GK: [00:13:01] Because I wanted to ask before this next question, the merger that happened with Windham Land Trust – what was happening within Windham Land Trust that made it seem like something you might want to do?

PP: [00:13:24] We knew that financially we were having a hard time, and fundraising wasn’t – the money just wasn’t coming in. We talked about the possibility of merging, and the one group that we thought of was Presumpscot because we were attached; Windham and Gorham are closely attached. It took a little convincing because they had been together for a long time, and initially, I think some of them didn’t see what the advantages would be. I reached out to Richard Curtis, and I met with him and another member of the Land Trust. We talked openly about the possibility. It didn’t really go anywhere after that meeting until Mike became president and Rachelle came, and then they reached out to me to talk about it. From there, it was very smooth sailing.

GK: [00:14:56] So you get together with Mike and Rachelle, and then the merger really happens.

PP: [00:15:03] Yeah. We talked about it. I went back to the Windham board, and we took a vote that we would like to proceed. Rachelle did the same with her board, and then from there on – I mean, really, Rachelle was behind the movement forward. She kept on top of things, and she and I talked a lot. I’m going to miss her dearly. She became a friend. I thought that the process of merging went very smoothly. There were obviously a few breaks in the road, but she really managed that extremely well.

GK: [00:16:02] Yeah, it does seem that way.

PP: [00:16:05] Yeah. She really did. Since the merger, we’ve done so much. We’ve acquired so many properties, and we’ve managed our trails. Now we have the outreach person. It seems to me like she’s doing some really good programming and outreach. I’m very proud of the Land Trust. [laughter]

GK: [00:16:34] Well, it’s amazing to go from such a small volunteer organization and then have it become what it is now

PP: [00:16:46] I know. It’s amazing. It really is.

GK: [00:16:49] What were some of the ways that the co-presidency –? When you were the president of PRLT, what were some of the things that you all did during that time?

PP: [00:17:01] Well, it’s hard to remember all the things, but Tamara, Rachelle, and I would meet for breakfast before we had a board meeting and plan the board meetings. That was fun. [laughter] You’ve got to have fun. It was a lot on developing a vision and a strategic plan that we could actually follow, discussing different properties and what the value would be to the communities, and making sure that we were protecting wildlife also. That was a big part of our discussions with a strategic plan. I think we accomplished a lot in that time, and they still are. They’re moving really forward. [laughter]

GK: [00:18:15] Can you talk a little bit about the value to the community? What purpose does the Land Trust serve in these different communities?

PP: [00:18:26] It gives people access to the outdoors close to their home. We have properties in Gorham, Windham, Westbrook – and Standish, we have a property there. That’s one of the biggest things for me, is that there is a place that you can go with your family, and you don’t have to drive a long way, and you have good trails, they’re well-maintained. That’s important to me. But also it conserves the land from future development, and the way development is going, it’s eating up a lot of land. I think we need to be careful planners and make sure that we’re conserving enough property just to protect it.

GK: [00:19:31] Just simply to have the land in the future.

PP: [00:19:34] Right, so it can be used for generations.

GK: [00:19:39] Were there ever any moments where it felt like a close call, like something was going to be bought or developed, and then you managed to buy it or preserve it?

PP: [00:19:54] Well, I think with any property, there are always going to be times when you wonder if it’s going to go through, especially with donated land. People are attached to their land, and they want to know that it’s going to be taken care of. I just think that we need to look to the future. We need to save forest land, we need to save grassland – all kinds. If we don’t do it now, it’s going to be too late.

GK: [00:20:38] There’s a lot of land being preserved right now in Windham. It sounds like there’s a huge project.

PP: [00:20:46] It’s huge. We’ve done two big projects, the East Windham Project and Lowell Preserve, and it’s connected to Falmouth. People have access – if they want to walk ten miles, they can. I think that’s wonderful to give people the opportunity to stretch themselves. So, I think it’s good for the health of a community to have places like this.

GK: [00:21:18] Yeah. I just was talking with Richard Curtis and saying the difference – because he was in the late ‘80s part of the Gorham Land Trust –

PP: [00:21:31] Yes, he was.

GK: [00:21:34] – which is really early to be –

PP: [00:21:37] Very early. They got some good properties under Richard. Yes.

GK: [00:21:41] I think thinking about it as conservation in your neighborhood – it’s not far away. It’s not the same as a national park; it’s a different kind of thing.

PP: [00:21:55] No. Right. Although, I’ll tell you that East Windham project is going to be very popular, I think, especially with the access to Little Duck Pond.

GK: [00:22:07] That’s wonderful.

PP: [00:22:08] I don’t think the people up there are too pleased with it.

GK: [00:22:16] Did public opinion change over time when you were doing this, the way the community felt about some of these projects?

PP: [00:22:25] Yes. I think the two big Windham projects garnered a lot of support from the community financially, and people were really pleased about it.

GK: [00:22:39] That’s different than when you came on.

PP: [00:22:45] I think it’s viewed very positively now. When we had a meeting at the high school to vote on whether or not to fund certain things, I expected there would be people that would speak against it, but it was all very positive.

GK: [00:23:05] What do you think –? Why do you think that changed?

PP: [00:23:09] Well, I think a lot of it is due to Rachelle and her ability to reach out to people, to meet with townspeople and town councils, and give a positive picture of why it would be good to work together. She has done an amazing job at reaching out to people.

GK: [00:23:34] That’s great.

PP: [00:23:36] And having the annual meetings at Randall Orchard – people have loved that, so they come.

GK: [00:23:46] Like you said, make it fun.

PP: [00:23:49] Right. Exactly. Yes.

GK: [00:23:51] What are some of the proudest moments for you that you’ve had over the last – oh, gosh – twenty years?

PP: [00:24:01] Quite a while. Well, I do have to say that one of the proudest was the Pride Preserve and managing to work with the family and get the funding to actually preserve that property. The other thing, I think, to some people, might not seem like a huge thing, but getting the vision and the strategic planning was really important to moving the organization forward.

GK: [00:24:39] Because up to that point – how did that change things, do you think?

PP: [00:24:45] Well, we had a purpose. We had something before us that we knew, in so many months or years, we wanted to have accomplished certain things. The group worked so well together; it was really a good experience.

GK: [00:25:10] Yeah. That’s great. It is a big deal.

PP: [00:25:13] It is. To some people, it might not seem like it, but when you’re in an organization, if you don’t know what you’re there for and what you want to accomplish, it isn’t going to work. [laughter]

GK: [00:25:29] Yes, very true. Are there stories that you haven’t talked about from the history? Any moments that we are missing? Maybe the lawsuit moment that I don’t know how relevant is to your experience.

PP: [00:25:47] I was part of WLT when the verdict came down. I was not an officer in the group at that time, but that was really important. That could affect other land trusts because of the way the verdict was written. So that was a very important thing. We were lucky that the attorney general’s office took that on. As it was, we paid a lot of money in lawyers, and it took us a while to pay all that off. I drive by the Freeman Farm now all the time and I look at it. I think it’s too bad that we can’t make more use of it because it’s a lovely property.

GK: [00:26:49] What was the dispute about?

PP: [00:26:53] It was about allowing the owner to have camping and fires and stuff on the property. Because I believe that it was part of the deed that there wasn’t to be stuff like that. He was just so hard to work with, and I’m sure he still is. He’s that type of person.

GK: [00:27:31] That was a win for Windham Land Trust.

PP: [00:27:33] Oh, it was. It was a big win, and we did celebrate. [laughter]

GK: [00:27:47] Just thinking if there are any other thoughts, too, about not only the history but just what it’s meant to you to be a part of this or what it’s meant for the towns and the community.

PP: [00:28:02] Well, for me personally, after retiring, it has given me a purpose in life to be a part of that group and to be learning. I’m a lifelong learner, and I have learned so much; it’s been a really good experience for me. I knew when it was time for me to step back and let other people come forward, but I’m always interested in what’s going on.

GK: [00:28:44] That’s great. As I’ve been doing these, I’ve done a lot of these today – talked to people. I think it’s inspiring to think about the second learning – it’s like your second career, but it’s not a career.

PP: [00:29:05] It’s not a career, no. But in a way, you put a lot of time and effort into it and thinking because you want to go in the right direction. It’s a time that I’ve been proud to have been able to serve and to know that we’re providing a future for – I have eight great-grandchildren [laughter], and I want them to have the opportunity to have spaces where they can go. Now, my grandson, who lives in Vermont, wrote to me one time, and he said, “Gram, I’m following in your footsteps.” He said, “I just became a member of the Stowe Land Trust.” That makes me happy to think that he got involved like that, too.

GK: [00:30:10] That’s wonderful.

PP: [00:30:11] Yeah.

GK: [00:30:12] Well, that’s a perfect note to end.

GK: [00:30:16] Thank you so much.

PP: [00:30:17] Oh, you’re very welcome.