Galen Koch: [00:00:01] I love your shirt, Bob.

 

Robert Ebendorf [00:00:02] Oh, thank you. But first, I just want to say, without getting emotional, how special this opportunity is that I can come to you and share the deep, deep gratitude in history and the many gifts that Haystack had gifted to me over the years. Big time. Really so, so special.

 

GK [00:00:31] I’m so glad. I’m so glad that you could do it, too. And I’m so glad you still got all the memories. [inaudible]

 

RE: [00:00:38] [laughter] That’s good.

 

GK: [00:00:40] It happens for people. [laughter]

 

RE: [00:00:42] [laughter] Oh, that’s good.

 

GK: [00:00:47] A few housekeeping things. When you’re talking, sometimes I’ll meet myself just so that I’m not on your side of the recording. That can be a little funny because I’ll look like I’m saying something, but you won’t be able to hear me. I’ll unmute myself when I have a question. It can be a little awkward on Zoom, but we will make it work. I think just starting out, could you just introduce yourself, who you are, where you live?

 

RE: [00:01:18] Yeah. Good afternoon. My name is Robert Ebendorf, and I’m speaking to you all from Santa Fe, New Mexico, where myself and my wife have lived for the last seven years. We are new transplants into the Land of Enchantment.

 

GK: [00:01:38] And where were you before you were in New Mexico?

 

RE [00:01:43] In New Paltz, New York, for a while. But coming really here from Greenville, North Carolina, where I had just finished giving up the Belk Distinguished Professorship at East Carolina University Art Department in Greenville, North Carolina.

 

GK [00:02:03] Wow. Do you typically go by Bob? Is that right?

 

RE [00:02:09] Yeah, that’s good.

 

GK: [00:02:10] Okay. If you’d prefer Robert, I’m happy to –

 

RE [00:02:14] No, thank you, ma’am.

 

GK: [00:02:16] Okay. Bob, can you just tell me how you came to craft and art making? What was your personal history?

 

RE [00:02:24] My footprint – and thinking back on when I knew that question was coming – my mother used to go to the Presbyterian church once a week in the evenings, where the women would come together and sew and talk and just have time out of the house. I got to go with her. Of course, they had a table with paper and string and things that I could do while they all engaged with one another. But I can remember wine bottles and wrapping them with string, so the entire bottle was wrapped in a string. It was my opportunity to step into a creative path of thinking and being playful. I think that that was an important, humble beginning of being curious, of working with lost and found material, with glue, string, broken glass, or whatever. As a young boy living in Topeka, Kansas, I used to go with my wagon down the alley, and I would look into each one of the trash cans. If I spotted something – liquor bottles were big because it was a state [where] drinking was not possible, but I would bring the lost and found things back to the garage where I had my little studio setup. On the shelf, I would put the alcohol bottles up, and then I would build things and make things. I think my sense of curiosity and leaning into the path was early on, kind of a scavenger looking for the castoffs and bringing them back and giving them another attitude or another vocabulary. So, it was a humble beginning and playful.

 

GK: [00:04:29] Yeah. That’s wonderful. Was there a moment for you where you realized it could be a career?

 

RE: [00:04:41] I think that going on into the university and then going on into graduate school, I did not know where I was really going with my artmaking or my passion. As I was finishing graduate school, I did not have the next experience lined up, but fortunately, I received a Fulbright grant to Norway. That set me on the path – another two years of travel and living in Norway – that gave me a chance to focus and look at where I might be going in this world of creativity. Of course, I was interested in the academics’ behavior because I had come out of that, and I had gained so much from the different teachers. I realized, wow, if I were able to be in the university or educational program, it would give me income, but I also could continue when I was not in school to have art practice in my own studio. So, it was all kind of putting one foot in front of the other. Dreaming and curiosity were very, very important. Even today, that sense of curiosity continues to be so vitally important in my life because the curiosity oftentimes led me down paths that I might not have traveled. Having that curiosity of interest, I think, is so important in one’s life.

 

GK: [00:06:34] Can you outline how Haystack fit in for you, what your early relationship was, and how you heard about it?

 

RE: [00:06:47] Well, I think I heard about it through Ron Pearson, who was also a key player with the Society of North American Goldsmiths [SNAG], and I was the first president, and I was very young. The men on the board were all much more major footprints in our field of personal adornment. So, Ron Pearson introduced me to Haystack. Also, I became aware of places like Arrowmont or Penland School of Crafts. So, the key player in my turning and experiencing Haystack definitely was Ron Pearson because he was on the board, also on the board of SNAG, but he also was able to talk to the board members and say, “This guy is young, and I think he would be a good teacher.” It was his knocking on the door to the director to say, “I think that he would be – he’s young. I think he would be a good one to have come as one of the faculty during one of the summers.”

 

GK [00:08:05] Ron would have been a bit older than you, sort of in a mentor position at that point.

 

RE [00:08:12] Yes, he was. Of course, being on the board or one of the founding members – and also his footprint already in the arts and personal adornment and blacksmithing, was major. He could pull the strings in many different ways. But he was such an educator and a person that continued to stay on the path and open the doors for others. The younger [ones] coming behind and passing the baton.

 

GK [00:08:50] What was your impression of Haystack before you went? What did you hear about it?

 

RE: [00:08:58] I’d only heard that it was located in this beautiful location. The studios were – there were the different studios. There was a blacksmithing, there was a glassblowing, there was weaving, there was painting, and set on this beautiful edge of Deer Isle, overlooking the ocean. So, by hearsay, it was just – and then, of course, some of their public relation printed pieces always showed beautiful images. So, it was kind of like coupling Ron Pearson’s language with visuals that were out and about the school because it had a very special footprint, like Penland did. It was a wonderful place for a creative drink of water in so many different studio areas.

 

GK: [00:09:58] So, even at that time, there was already a footprint that Haystack had made in the craft world.

 

RE: [00:10:05] Very, very much so. Of course, being not so far from Boston, they had a heavy load of people coming from the Boston community to Haystack for their sessions. But then, of course, their footprint, the public relations, and the teachers that were invited to teach were all major footprints in all the different media. So, if you wanted to go for two weeks and be with one of the major glassblowers or blacksmiths or weavers – and also, you had studio time from in the morning until late at night. Someone else did the cooking. You had a place to sleep. So, it was a very wonderful nest to be a part of.

 

GK: [00:10:57] Do you remember the first session you took?

 

RE: [00:11:00] I believe my first session there was – 1974 was my first session to come to Haystack to teach. No, the first one was 1970 – no, 1974 was the first time.

 

GK: [00:11:27] I have 1968. Is that right?

 

RE: [00:11:33] I’m looking at my notes here. Yes. You’re right. Yeah. Yes. You’re on it.

 

GK [00:11:42] I remember because it was a culinary session.

 

RE: [00:11:48] Yes, yes, yes.

 

GK: [00:11:49] Do you remember that?

 

RE: [00:11:51] Yes, I do. It was all about food, and the different studios all made objects that celebrated food. If it was a wooden spoon or fork or a ceramic bowl. The last day or the last meal, those ceramic people made bowls. So we had soup in what had been made in the studio during that time. Yes, it was a culinary [inaudible] that time.

 

GK [00:12:26] Do you remember what you ended up making?

 

RE: [09:12:30] I ended up making copper spoons and then also a couple of silver spoons and pickle forks to spear olives or pickles. Everybody from their studio, that last meal, were able to bring their objects, the gift, to the table. As we lined up to go through the food line, you could stop and pick up a ceramic bowl. And then, after eating, you could go wash it out and take it home with you. So, it was a way of celebrating two weeks together and looking at food and the way it is on the table, beautifully, with the flowers in the vase or whatever.

 

GK: [00:13:26] That’s so lovely. Sounds like there was a real communal sense.

 

RE: [00:13:31] Very much so. Also, this was always, but in the evenings, the cooks would do the dishes, and everybody would go back to the studios to work. But then at nine o’clock or ten o’clock, when you were leaving the studio, you could go up to the big, long house, and on the table, there was always leftovers out. If it was cookies or the coffee was there. So oftentimes, you could stop in the late evening for a cup of coffee and a piece of cake and some conversation with others before you retired.

 

GK: [00:14:10] Yeah. So, those first couple of sessions that you went to – there was 1968, and then you said 1974 was the one you had in your notes.

 

RE: [00:14:24] That’s what I had in my notes. But I think you have a better, more up-to-date date on that.

 

GK: [00:14:31] Okay, great. And then, can you tell me just some of your other impressions of being there for the first time as a student? Do you remember who the faculty was that you were studying with?

 

RE: [00:14:44] I was there as a teacher. I didn’t go as a student. I was invited as a teacher.

 

GK: [00:14:51] Right.  Okay.

 

RE: [00:14:52] The golden memory of that – because we all had our own little bungalows where we slept. One cabin was connected just with a wall between, and the next – the next. So, it was a row of cabins. Then, you would walk up to get to the main [inaudible] and the studios. In the cabin next to me – Dale. Dale Chihuly, the glass blower, was in the cabin next to me. Dale had just come back from Murano in Italy. He was the new kid on the block with glassblowing. He was teaching glass. I was teaching jewelry. But what was interesting, and I remember this so clearly, early in the morning – I’m always an early person up. But early in the morning, before I was getting ready to get out of bed, I heard – because it was just a wall, I heard noise, and then I heard him scuttling about, but then it was a tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick. Quiet. But all I could hear was a tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick. Then, no sound. Next thing, I heard the door open. He shut the door, and I heard him walk past my door, going – and this was quite early in the morning. And I thought, “What?” And then the next morning, the same thing – tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick. The door shut. I heard him walk. So, about the third day, after breakfast, I said, “Dale, I have a question. In the morning. I hear this noise, and you leave before sunup.” He says, “Oh, I’m going to the studio. But what you’re hearing – while I was in Murano with my camera, and I was taking film of the glass blowers because the glassblowers at Murano at the factory had a beautiful way of rhythm, of working and swinging the tube and blowing.” So he said, “What I’m doing is looking at those videos, and I’m practicing these body movements, and then I would turn it off, and that’s when you would hear no more. And then I would go up and practice these movements.” Anyway, Dale Chihuly and I had a very interesting visit in the time – two weeks. I would take to him – he said, “Do you have any little pieces of silver or something? Scrap?”  So, I gave him little pieces of gold and a little piece of silver and just gave them to him, not knowing what. So at the end of the two sessions, he came to my studio and put before me three little bowls that he had blown in glass, but in gathering – on the blowpipe, gathering the hunk of glass, he would roll it on the putty and roll the metal into the glass and then blow it. So these little pieces were in – anyway, it was a very – Dale Chihuly’s friendship, he and I continued until his death. [Editor’s Note: Dale Chihuly, the renowned glass artist, is still living as of this writing.] Again, that’s something about magic about Haystack. You walk away with not only learning a new skill from the person teaching a class, but you walk away with an incredible gift of new friendships. Many of those people are still alive in my world and are not off the planet. But it was always a special gift [for] those who were there during that time.

 

GK: [00:18:42] Do you think that there was something in the experience of the campus itself or how it was set up that helped to foster relationships like that?

 

RE: [00:18:57] Well, I think that because every morning when you wanted food, you always sat. At lunch, you always sat. Dinner, you always sat. I remember coming in and sitting down and just watching the people at the different tables, and there’d be a person that, for some reason, he or she would catch my eye. I didn’t know them. Then, all of a sudden, I said, “I’ve got one more week before I leave.”  So, I’d get up and go over and sit down by this person and introduce myself and say, “How was this session? Are you enjoying it?” It was always very interesting, kind of catching me on the backside of someone that I had watched. I said, “I don’t want to leave without saying hello and being a bit more personal with them.” I think that Haystack, for not only myself but for so many of those who have come and gone, it’s amazing that many of those friendships that they have made or that I made there continue to stay with me to this day. I’m in my eighties, middle eighties, and so many of those people have stepped off the planet. But I’m still connected to that family.

 

GK: [00:20:20] Yeah. That’s wonderful. Are there any folks that you became friends with either through teaching or there were sessions –? Were there sessions that you went [to] as a student, or were you mostly a teacher?

 

RE: [00:20:37] Mostly as a teacher, but I do have one that I will share with you about. I came. I was going to be teaching two weeks in jewelry. They called me in the office. We had not met our class yet. It was the day before. They said, “Bob, in your class, there’s a special person. I just wanted to let you know because I want you to – she doesn’t have jewelry skills, but she wanted to take the class.” They said, “Yes, I think that Bob would be okay.”  It was Barbara Rockefeller. I said, “Well, okay.” They said, “She’s not staying on campus, but she will be coming every morning.” I said, “Okay, but where is she staying? Is she staying in Deer Isle?” “No, she’s staying on the yacht.” So there was a yacht out in front of Haystack out in the bay. In the morning, her boat captain would motor her into the dock at Haystack, and she would come up the steps to the class. Anyway, it was a very wonderful experience. At the end, she said, “Bob, if you ever come to New York City, I know that you teach at the 92nd Street Y, but I want to let you know that you’re more than welcome sometimes after class to come for lunch.” And I said, “Oh, that’d be very nice.” She said, “Here’s the address. Just call me because the doorman will need to let you in.” That was very interesting. That was so Haystack that you would meet these individuals that had another whole life, and also their learning. I would visit her many, many times at this marvelous apartment with art everywhere. You’d go to the balcony and look over Fifth Avenue and see – but it was one of those wonderful experiences, gifts of friendship, and all about the arts. Of course, the Rockefeller home was filled with – because the family was deep in their personal art collection. She was a beautiful lady, and it was fun to sit and have lunch with her. It was golden. That’s another one of the things. Haystack oftentimes would gift an unknown player in your life that if you nurtured it and continued to stay in touch – I still have those friendships from Haystack.

 

GK: [00:23:41] That is amazing. What a great story. Can you tell me in the span of time when you were going, did the school –? How did the school change? Did it change at all?

 

RE: [00:23:57] The change came, I think, very much so in the tech world, when all of a sudden, the computer and technology became quite more interfacing with the arts. Also, too, they had the Fab Lab at Haystack, which was something new, and it was run by Harvard guys from MIT. They would come and be teachers in the Fab Lab. Of course, the Fab Lab was something – a new language, a new studio creative situation that a lot of people did not know about. So, the teachers would come. Then, they had the money to set up the Fab Lab, and that was a brand-new component to Haystack’s offering. It also showed that the school was keeping up with the times, the times of learning and skill oriented by working in the computer world. That was a real new add-on for Haystack. It was one of the first programs in the summer months where they had the technology and the technical equipment to run what they call the Fab Lab.

 

GK: [00:25:30] As a faculty member, did you use the Fab lab or go in?

 

RE: [00:25:37] [laughter] No. Even today, Aleta will – we’ll be getting ready to go to bed. I’m downstairs, and she’s upstairs. I say, “Aleta, your computer is on.”  She said, “Well, just turn it off.” I said, “Well, how do you –?” She said, “Just put the lid down. It will turn [off].” That’s just how impaired. You met Georgina. She’s my go-to girl that comes once a week. I can connect with her by phone, and she can do my emails on the phone. I’m still today extremely dyslexic, extremely unequipped with the technology that is available to all of us.

 

GK: [00:26:24] Well, it seems like you’re doing fine [inaudible]

 

RE: [00:26:28] Well, I’ve been able to figure out enough how to skip around the curves and ask for help here and not be embarrassed that I don’t know how. That’s humbling to realize that I am very unprepared to work with the technology of today. I’m still old-fashioned, all by hand, and try, in the mid-eighties, to keep it upstairs together.

 

GK: [00:27:02] Can you tell me, Bob, a little bit – and this question isn’t in the list but leads into another. What influences the work that you make? And how did your experience at Haystack change the work that you take?

 

RE: [00:27:18] Well, let’s go to Haystack first. I think that coming together with the other faculty members, and they all were skilled in their particular area of expertise – of course, during those two weeks there, you had to slide programs in the evening. I was able to step into a well-known ceramic person that I’d only read about and never had met but had an hour program in-depth slide presentation. So, it was just getting the fix, getting that information, that visual. And then, of course, the students that were in my class, I learned so much from them. I mean, I show them a skill, and they take that skill, and they run with it totally differently than the way I work with it. For two weeks, I have these ten or eleven people like my own laboratory, dropping this information and this information – “This is the way I do this.” They turn around, and they say, “Oh, okay, but this is the way I did it.” It was a continual beefing up my understanding of a skill and doing that differently than I did. That was from student to teacher. Then, when the other faculty members would give their evening presentation, I was able to step into their world, into their studio. Then, after Haystack, many of those men and women I stayed in touch with. I’m a great postage stamp – I mean, every morning, religiously, I spend the first forty-five minutes doing postcards – doing collages and postcards. If Georgina isn’t with me, Aleta says, “Bob, I’m not stepping into your world.” I mean, you’ve got too much shit going on. She said, “You’ve got to sell enough jewelry to make it work and find a tech person.” So, Georgina is very deep in our family. But then, in turn, the postcards and mail is very big in my connection to the outside world … But also because I stay in touch so much with different museum directors, and I’m always doing it by postcards. They’re saying, “I got one of your postcards. I don’t know what time in the morning or night you were doing it. You must have been drunk or high, but I couldn’t understand what you were writing.” Because if my spelling is so poor that if I’m writing, I just go ahead and go for it, and they can cobble it together. But of course, the front side is where I do my creative dance.

 

GK: [00:30:36] You need a retrospective of your postcards.

 

RE: [00:30:39] The Mint Museum – they have quite a collection, and they oftentimes bring them out and put them on display.

 

GK: [00:30:52] Oh, that is wonderful. How long have you been doing that and corresponding that way?

 

RE: [00:30:59] Many years because I’m not computer literate. So, if I can’t get Aleta to stop her day and answer something, she said, “Bob, I’m not going to do it. It’ll wreck our marriage.”  She said, “You got to find …” Then, Georgina came on board. That one day a week is like 24 karat when she can come and be with me. But then also, she has welcomed a phone call in distress and saying, “Oh, George, can you do this for me?” And she’s at home. She says, “Give me a second. Call me back, and I can help you.” It’s great teamwork. George is so big in my life – in our life. Yeah.

 

GK: [00:31:50] That’s great. So, you’ve kept in touch with some of these folks who influenced you also from Haystack through these postcards. Does anyone stand out to you as an influence? Any names or people who sort of ended up being mentors for you through that, through the process of going to Haystack?

 

RE: [00:32:15] Well, of course, a very important mentor was Ron Pearson, who lived at Deer Isle and who was on the board for Haystack and who was also on the board of the Society of North American Goldsmiths. He was one of the founding members, as I was. That mentor and that professional footprint, both educator and maker, walked side by side with me, and he was older, and he oftentimes opened the door for me in opportunities because it was like he [was] passing the baton – “I don’t have the time. I’m too busy. But I think Bob can do this.” So. Ron Pearson was really very big. Another thing was interesting, a bit humbling and emotional. One time, I was teaching at Haystack, and the director came to me and said, “Bob, Ron Pearson called, and he wants you to come to the house and have coffee with him. It’s important that you find time. Have the office call and let him know when you’re coming.” So I did, and I went. I arrived, and he took me upstairs in the studio – because he lived downstairs, the upstairs was his workshop. As I was in the workshop, we sat there and had coffee. He had pieces of jewelry set out, and he had me picking them up. He was talking to me about each one of the pieces and said, “I want you to notice this.” It was very special. I was aware that I was in the midst of a very influential person in my life and also in the world of personal adornment, and also helping start the blacksmithing organization. As I left that day, got in the car, and drove away, I was just overwhelmed with gratitude and friendship. I got back to school. Before I left, the office came to me and said, “Bob, I just want to let you know that Ron is seriously ill, and we don’t know how much longer he has on the planet.” I went, “Whoa.” It all kind of came to me about that moment that he said, “We’ve had a deep friendship. Come. I want you to have coffee.” Also, picking up pieces and so forth. When I left that day, he said, “Here are some tools. I want you to pick up a tool to add to your tool collection.” I picked up a pair of pliers, and I said, “Oh, thank you.” But not knowing that what he was really doing was just doing that emotional, quiet send-off and putting me out into the world on my own. He was such a deep mentor for so many. He was the one who – he and a couple of others started the North American blacksmithing organization [Artist-Blacksmith’s Association of North America (ABANA)]. He, once again, was a footprint in the world of adornment, in the arts, and as an educator.

 

GK: [00:36:03] Sounds like a very profound person to have that experience with you at that point.

 

RE: [00:36:13] Yeah. One quick thing. He also owned a cottage out on Baker Island, which was an island off of Haystack, off of Deer Isle, one of the small islands. He said, “Bob, before you leave, I want you to go to the cottage. I’ll tell you how to drive to the boat ramp. There will be a man there in the boat.” Anyway, he sent me out for three days in this little cabin out on the island, on Baker Island, that he owned for so many years. He had made a silver goblet for a minister in Rochester, New York. The minister did not have the money for the silver goblet for the church, “But I gave you this cottage on Baker Island.” So, again, typical Ron, very quietly passing an experience for three days [for] myself on Baker Island, which was quite wonderful to have that experience. Ron was such an educator and also a connector.

 

GK: [00:37:39] Yeah, it sounds like that. He had folks who were coming and living on Deer Isle, too, like apprentices working with him, right?

 

RE: [00:37:50] Yes, yes. He did do that. He did offer the apprenticeship. Then, when they had learned a great deal, he would cut them loose. Usually, he would go out to people like myself who are educators. “Look, I have studio space available for apprentices. Is there anybody that you feel would fit into this situation?” Being in the Society of North American Goldsmiths, he had carte blanche, the open avenues to so many educators looking for a talented young person to come and work for a period of time.

 

GK: [00:38:41] And at this time, you were teaching at Haystack in some summers, and you were also working in academia. You were working in New Paltz.

 

RE: [00:38:53] Yes, I was at New Paltz and then East Carolina University after. I retired from New Paltz. I then went into the studio. We left New Paltz, relocated, and then Linda Dougherty called and said, “Bob, would you come and give a lecture at East Carolina?” not knowing it was a set-up. I went, and she said, “Stay for a couple of days and be with the students in the workshop.” On the way to the airport – her senior (John Satterfield?) was the head of the department. Linda Dougherty was head of the enameling department. At the airport – we went early. He said, “Bob, we have a guest professorship. Could we entice you to come back into the academic circle and come [to] East Carolina and take on this endowed Belk distinguished chair position?” I made I made the decision to return. That’s how I returned back after retiring to the academic circle. The endowed chair was big because I had my own bank account, and nobody could write on it. I had access to that money. So, if I wanted to have a person come to give me a speaker, or if I wanted to go to Europe to go to a conference, nobody could get on my case because I had my own money. I was not welcomed by a lot of the faculty members because I had the golden goose. I had my own money, and I could go away if I wanted to, or I could invite people in [to] our projects. So, that opportunity [to] come back to East Carolina was a really wonderful opportunity.

 

GK: [00:41:09] When was the last time you were at Haystack? Do you know?

 

Georgina McKee: [00:41:18] Two or three years ago.

 

RE: [00:41:20] I think it was about three years ago. Yeah. It was always, you know, getting the phone call was always exciting to return and be a part of their vision. Also, sharing skills and thinking with my class that someone had shared and [gave] to me. Because anything that I do had really been gifted to me through mentors or my own students. It’s amazing how this – you have your own – I had my own laboratory. I had my own scientists at work. And their mistakes – I could say, “Well, maybe if you tried it this way, it might be a better way to approach it.” It was a win-win for us all, for everybody.

 

GK: [00:42:21] You may have answered this because you have said it in many ways, but what do you think people take away from their time at Haystack?

 

RE: [00:42:35] Probably the first thing is they probably have gained five pounds or ten pounds because the food and the eating from the kitchen is amazing. It really is amazing. They always used to say the place it runs on the stomach, from the kitchen. But I do think, coming away from Haystack, not only the teachers, but I think it’s a win-win because you don’t get invited to Haystack if you’re a butthole. I mean, they do the research, and they bring in people who give and enjoy giving. In turn, if I put the money down for two weeks, I have a full-on studio to learn in with a man or woman that is very skilled in this because usually each one of their teachers is skilled in maybe a particular area that’s very unique to their work. So you have two weeks sitting side by side with a person who has a certain skill that is amazing, that you can learn from, as well as his or her other hand skills and thinking. One thing is having hand skills, but the other important part is the thinking of how to spin it. How do you take those hands skills and be personally with it?

 

GK: [00:44:13] Yeah. I know it’s probably a huge question, but the question I am thinking is just what was influencing your work before that, and how did it get tangled up with the things that you are seeing at Haystack? Maybe even just a few things – because you kind of mentioned watching the students in the laboratory of the metal shop. Maybe just a few examples of things you took away from that time. I’d be curious to know.

 

RE: [00:44:51] Well, I think another important part of my learning and creative thinking is that I can go to any museum and go through the paintings or sculpture or through the ceramics objects, the metal objects, and always come away with, wow, I never thought about turning the edge up like that. Or, wow, I never thought about how – like that wood-carved African piece. How could I do that in my studio what I’m doing? I find that the museums have been so important to me. I seek out the museum. I seek out the book collection. I think that was something. Maybe because being [severely] dyslexic in a way, that visually became very important for me to connect the dots, or to create curiosity and say, “Wow, I wonder if I could try that technique, or I could try that surface, to scratch that surface that way.” I think that curiosity fuels my passion in so many ways. Now, maybe I’m slipping away from the question you asked.

 

GK: [00:46:21] No, I think that’s wonderful. I had just asked if there were any specific examples of maybe a technique or a mistake that someone made that sort of sparked your – inspired you from any of the sessions that you taught.

 

RE: [00:46:39] Well, I do think that mistakes that I make in the skill approach, I always learn from. “Don’t do it that way. Look what happened. Look at the mess you’ve got. You’ve got to do it differently than that because the messes that – to clean that up is difficult.” Or also, during the workshop, during the students’ relationship, I can feed verbally or show them, and they’re the worker bees. I can observe their results. Sometimes, I’m totally overwhelmed at their skill level by just talking verbally. I show them something. It’s a win-win. I think that, as an educator, and for all those years, I was so gifted by the student showing me how to do it and how to do it better, or how to mess it up and go on down the road. So, it’s accumulation of gift-giving, I think. I give. They give. I think that’s been one of the joys of being in the academic world is giving back.

 

GK: [00:48:10] Yeah. I love to think of it that way. Gift giving. I like that. Can you tell me how you view Haystack’s position just in the broader craft movement and what the contribution of schools like that is?

 

RE: [00:48:28] Well, I think that there are maybe two or three major schools like a Haystack, and each one of them has their own voice and their own board of directors, trying to keep the money and trying to keep the studios up. I think that all of them come with the true passion of education. Of course, they’re always looking for the donor for the fundraising, what grant they can acquire to build a new studio. It is interesting how these places cobble together/weave together their facilities, and they’re always trying to upgrade buildings’ safety, cooking facilities, etc., so that when you put the money down for two weeks, you have an instructor that is a footprint in their field, and you put the money down to come because you want to learn something about that. I always felt like a good student who comes to my class if they come with the passion of taking everything they can get from me and just strip me bare – I mean, that’s why I’m there is to let them have what I’ve learned over the years. If I can’t take that, if that [inaudible] me, I have no business accepting the invitation to come because I give it away because someone gave it to me. There have been instructors that do not have that philosophy or attitude – “This is my technique. I don’t show that in the workshop because this is something that I’ve worked very hard to capitalize on or become known for. That’s not going to be a part of our two weeks together.” That’s their call. But someone gave it to me, and I’ll give it back.

 

GK: [00:50:52] How do you see –? Being part of the academic world, how do you see Haystack and Penland and those schools fitting in for craft education and ongoing education?

 

RE: [00:51:09] It’s amazing because look how many of the men and women who have not had an academic experience, but they’ve maybe picked up a book on ceramics, how to make molds, and how to do glaze calculation. Here’s the glaze formula. Penland, Haystack, Arrowmont – these places create that welcoming for education in such an open way. I think that they take that mission with great responsibility – creating an environment for two weeks. You pay the money. You get here. We’re going to deliver. I’ve had people in my class who are unhappy about something. And I say, “What you need to do is you go up to the office and let them know what you’re unhappy about because it’s important. You’re not a tattle-tale-ing. But your unhappiness – they need to know about. If it’s with me as an instructor or if it’s about – your bed is a [creaky], and you need a new mattress, they need to know this because they’re here in service, and you’re paying for it.”

 

GK: [00:52:33] Yeah, that’s a very interesting perspective. It’s a great perspective. I think we’re like, “Oh, it’s a craft school,” but it is also an experience that you’re paying for.

 

RE: [00:52:49] Yeah, it is.

 

GK: [00:52:51] You want to get something from it. And you want generosity from your instructors.

 

RE: [00:52:53] This makes me giggle. I remember what it was like. Here I am, teaching in North Carolina or whatever, and going to Haystack. Probably seventy-five or eighty percent of the people at Haystack were from New York City or from Metropolitan [areas]. I’ll tell you, if things are not right, they’ll bite you in the butt. They’ll let you know. It was my experience of being upfront [and] honest with a person [who’d] say, “Bob, I don’t like this,” and lay it right on the table. Anyway, it’s quite a different mindset that I experienced of two weeks with people living in Manhattan and calling it out. If it’s not right, this is the way I feel about it, laying it on the table and saying, “Okay.”

 

GK [00:53:59] A new cultural experience.

 

RE: [00:54:01] Something else that brings up a giggle is that in the class for two weeks, I’ve learned the hard way realizing that I really have to watch my relationship with each one of the students because if I’m starting to spend more time with John than I am with the rest of the class or with Mary, that will bite me in the butt because what happens, all of a sudden, the environment starts going nasty because Bob is spending more time with Sally or more time with John when I paid the same amount. I need attention, too. I have to be very careful in the flow of the family, how to give time, and when to back out and realize that this is not working. I’m spending too much time with John, etc., and kind of dealing with the dynamics because it can go south on you really easily. Then, that unhappy person is going to find another unhappy person in the family. And all of a sudden, you got three people who are not happy because they’re talking to one another. Yeah, I see the smile on your face.

 

GK: [00:55:26] Yeah, I teach as well. I know what it’s like. Yes. I know. If you were telling another class person or student of yours about Haystack, what would you say to them? How do you describe the experience?

 

RE: [00:55:52] Now, am I talking to a potential person going there? Am I talking to –? Help me. I’m talking to a person who might be asked to teach there?

 

GK: [00:56:04] Oh, wow. Maybe both.

 

RE: [00:56:06] Okay. I think if it was a person who was looking at the calendar, the summer flow calendar, and knowing – I mean, financially, that person’s got to get there by airplane or by car. That person’s got to have X amount of money to pay for the housing and then also the paying for the class. So, it’s not an easy hit financially. So, if they’re asking about the place, I would like to share with them what I think the takeaway is. Read the brochure. If you see the description of the class that might be of interest to you, then go to the website and look at that teacher on the website, who they are, and what they’re known for or whatever. Do your homework so you know what you’re buying into as a leader in the field. Also, you know that Haystack, Arrowmont, or Penland have a long history of delivering. I think that what I would say to them – pick the situation, look at the bottom line – how are you going to get there? – then do your homework on how the class is going to be delivered. I mean, what the class is about. Oftentimes, when I’m in the brochure, I’ll get an email from Mary Smith or John Doe, [saying], “I’m looking at maybe coming to Haystack. And my question is – I’m a novice. I don’t have a lot of skills. Would I be welcomed in the class, or is it going to be something that’s going to be –?” Then I can reach back to them and say, “If you’re coming, I can work with that.” I can support the potential person by saying, “Do your homework, reach out to them, so you have a little better understanding [of] what you’re stepping into.”

 

GK: [00:58:24] Yeah, that’s wonderful advice for someone going in. The communication piece.

 

RE: [00:58:30] Yeah. Because I’ve always said, knowing that I’m going to a place, I get a list of the people who have signed up. I then sit down and email each one of them and say, “The door is open. Ask me any questions now because I’m looking forward [to] our time together. But if there’s any misgivings or concerns, please share it with me now so we can put a little light on that and so that you’re better prepared in the journey in the coming together.” Because it’s really difficult if I spend too much time with John Doe and don’t watch that, then all of a sudden, all the other alley cats are on you about – “Well, he’s got a favorite. He’s spending so much time with John Doe, and I paid the same amount of money. So, what am I, chopped liver?” It gets a little slip –

 

GK: [00:59:36] Yeah. You’re creating an environment before you even get there of –

 

RE: [00:59:41] Yeah, it’s a slippery slope. It’s a slippery slope if I don’t behave in that sense.

 

GK: [00:59:52] In that same vein, if someone we’re going to teach, it might be some similar advice that you would give them.

 

RE: [00:59:59] Yeah. But the one thing that these schools have given so graciously is that so many men and women who want to have a ceramic experience but have never been in an academic experience in a university or whatever but wants to learn clay for whatever reason, is that there are these places like Arrowmont, Penland, Haystack that offer an open door of education. We’re so fortunate that we – because, in Europe, this does not exist. These types of things don’t even exist there. The programs that you and I know about are very, very unique to Americana.

 

GK: [01:00:52] Why do you think that is? Does that have a root in American craft?

 

RE: [01:00:57] I think that my experience with European artists – they are very much, “This is my work. This is my studio. This is what I do. But to give away tricks or techniques? Pretty much, I’ve worked hard to get to this point. This is what I’m known for, but I’m not going to be passing that on.” Where, I think, an American – “Give me your tired. Give me your poor. I’ll give it all to you.” I think there’s a little different mindset. I think that’s why the craft schools have continued to stay healthy and fertile because they continue to embrace giving it away, creating an environment – someone else does the cooking. Someone else makes the bed, takes care of the laundry, etc. The American craft movement is, I think, very unique in so many ways. I’ve been very much involved with this for so many years, viewing that in depth.

 

GK: [01:02:20] Yeah, that’s wonderful. I’ve done a lot of these interviews, and I don’t think anyone’s quite put it like that. I think it’s really great because it is true. You can go as a novice. I mean, that is something that is unique about these schools. Not every class requires you to have the skills.

 

RE: [01:02:42] Now, I’ll tell you what. When I do walk in, and I’ve got that divided situation where I have six hardcore, well-skilled, and then I have three people that don’t know how to put a saw blade in yet, those first three or four days are very – because the ones that are more skilled, they’re out there moving. Here, I am spending time with John Doe, showing them how to not break saw blades, and I need to sit down with them [and] be more attentive to their concerns. Some instructors that come – that’s very, very difficult. That’s when the one feels left out, or that one feels left out will find another left out, another left out. Then you got three chickens in there that are not happy, and someone’s upstairs in the office. I’ve had the office come down, walk into my class, and say, “Bob, can I talk to you for a minute?” I go outside, and they say, “Look, John Doe came to the office, and da-da-da. But I just want to let you know that John Doe is not happy, and we don’t want to lose him. What can we do? Can you take that –? Can you do something with that? Be aware of it.” And I’ve been called out outside and asked [to] slow down, use some skills that bring them back into happiness, and not be unhappy.

 

GK: [01:04:46] Yeah, it’s very important. It’s just great lessons for any educator or anyone who’s thinking about teaching a class and how you manage that. It’s a big part of the social experiment of a school like that. [laughter]

 

RE: [01:05:07] Let me share one Haystack – in the evenings, the studio is open until maybe 11:00 or whatever at Haystack. I would come back after dinner, and I was not on duty, but I would be there, doing my own work. I would go, and I was going away; it was time to go to bed. They were staying on. There are two or three of them. One of the men and a lady – the lady was in the chair, and the chairs on rollers, and they’re scooting them around the studio, playing like a go-kart or something. It spilled, and she was hurt. They didn’t know what to do. So, they went upstairs, and this is like at, like, 10:00. The next thing happened, the ambulance comes, and they get her out and get her up because there’s all these steps. I don’t know this until the next morning. The next morning, they pull me aside and said, “Yeah, da-da-da.” But things can go off the rails so easy if you are not there, staying on point.

 

GK: [01:06:31] And it’s not an easy place to get an emergency vehicle.

 

RE: [01:06:34] Honey, you are so right. Yes.

 

GK: [01:06:40] It’s funny because a lot of people have talked about that. A lot of stories are when that ambulance had to come because it’s just so – yeah, it’s [inaudible].

 

RE: [01:06:53] My story is not unknown to you, girl.

 

GK: [01:06:56] No, it’s not. Bob, this has been such a pleasure to hear your stories. I’m wondering if you had any memories or stories written down that you didn’t get to share yet that you wanted to share and want to make sure you shared.

 

RE: [01:07:13] I would say Fran Merritt and his wife, Priscilla, were such amazing human beings in networking, community, the students, and the faculty that would come. Two weeks [inaudible], and then a whole new group of people would come, and they would have to be on point. Priscilla Merritt used to say, “When Haystack opens up, I send Fran away because I never see him. I tell him to stay out at Haystack. He lives at Haystack. He doesn’t come home because it totally interrupts our world, and it’s just a crazy time.” I’ve learned to give him up in the summer months. I had such a beautiful friendship with Fran and Priscilla. I lived in New Paltz, New York, at that time, and I lived in the country and had a beautiful old, old farmhouse. Fran came and said, “Bob, there’s so many people come to Haystack from New York City, and we’ve always tried to once a year to do a benefit for Haystack fundraising, etc. There’s so many people in New York City that we try to get the family together and create an opportunity.” He says, “Would you be able –? Let me tell you my idea.” He said, “I know that you live in the country. You have this big piece of property.” He said, “I will pay for the food. I will pay for anything. But could we do a fundraiser at your place? Because I know you have this acreage.” It was such a joy to have this fundraiser at my home. They would pull out all the stops; they’d have the catering service come, and then all the people would come from New York City. Of course, they were raising money for different things. It was really nice to have had such a close friendship with Fran and Priscilla where they could sit down and say, “Here’s an idea. Can we work with you on that?” So, I had that richness of being brought into the Haystack inner workings/ family and be supportive over that period of time. Whenever Haystack, even today, will reach out, I always look at my calendar, wipe it clean, and have a return visit because it was such a gift to me as a young person going there. What I left as the young person – I had new friendships in the field of ceramics, glass, blacksmithing that were major voices and major leaders. I was the newbie. I was the young one. The same way with the students, young and old, that came through, the time. I have a lot of gratitude and fond memories of a long time – many, many times there. I thank you for doing – because I know you’re talking to others and gathering that together. It must be very interesting to you to hear different people spin the wheel from their perception or their recall.

 

GK: [01:11:00] Yeah, it’s really wonderful. We’re going to have an archive and be building an archive of these interviews, which is just so great because they all inform one another. It’s really wonderful to hear the stories.

 

RE: [01:11:17] How many have you done? Interviews?

 

GK: [01:11:20] For the long form – let me look. I have it pulled up. Long interviews like this, I’ve done nine.

 

RE: [01:11:41] And who are some of the personalities?

 

GK: [01:11:44] I just finished Wendy –

 

RE: [01:11:50] Maruyama. Yeah.

 

GK: [01:11:51] Wendy Maruyama and Kay Sekimachi were the ones that I’ve just done. Marilyn Pappas.

 

RE: [01:12:00] Oh my gosh.

 

GK: [01:12:02] That was great. I interviewed Al and Nancy Merritt. The first year was folks who either were on the board or staff or were there. So Al is Fran and Priscilla’s son. I interviewed him and then Sue Bralove, who was on the board for many, many years and went in the early ‘60s. Yeah. And Candy Haskell, who ran the office for – I don’t even remember. For fifty years. Something crazy. Incredible.

 

RE: [01:12:44] Many of those people that you’ve mentioned, I had the opportunity and the gift to get to know them there through that. The Merritts – when I would come, Fran and Priscilla [would] say, “Our son – they have a house over to Stonington. Would you all like to stay on for some time because no one’s there?” Oftentimes, we would be in Stonington afterward, living in the house there. Yeah. The footprints and memories are very, very special. Also, having Ron Pearson there, close to Fran and Priscilla in that early time. Anyway, I’m happy that my name came up on the list of people for you to have time with. I was so looking forward. I had all these notes, all this stuff.

 

GK: [01:13:56] I think sometimes sitting on these Zooms, it’s hard to do for more than an hour. It’s hard to do for more than an hour, honestly. Georgina, if you’re like, “Oh, we’ve got quite a few more stories to tell,” because I think we could probably talk for six hours. So, just let me know.

 

GM: [01:14:18] We’ll reconvene.

 

GK: [01:14:22] That would be great.

 

RE:  [01:14:23] Would you send me, via email, your mailing address? I have something I want to send you. So you send me your mailing address, and I’ll put you on my postcard hit list

 

GM: [01:14:36] Yeah. Be careful.

 

GK: [01:14:38] Oh, wow. I’m excited.

 

RE: [01:14:40] Okay.