Galen Koch: [0:00:00] I will just have you say your first and last name and just introduce yourself. Where are you living right now? Things like that.

Susan Bralove: [0:00:13] I am Susan. We’re ready?

GK: [0:00:15] Yeah, we’re ready

SB: [0:00:16] Okay. I am Susan Haas Bralove. I live in Washington, DC, and I first came to Haystack in 1968. I was just out of college. My husband was studying for the bar exam in New York, and I needed to get out of New York and away from him. I remembered that a professor of mine in college had mentioned Haystack. His family spent summers on Deer Isle, and he knew I enjoyed making things with my hands, specifically making jewelry, and he thought Haystack was a place I would really enjoy. So, I went off to Haystack in 1968 and took my first classes.

GK: [0:01:09] Oh, wow. Where did you go to school? Where was that professor?

SB: [0:01:13] I was at Pembroke College, the woman’s college in Brown University. Pembroke College no longer exists. There’s now one name for the men and the women, Brown, but it was Pembroke College in those days. Haystack was also very different in those days. The sessions were longer, and I came for a three-week session. At that time, you were allowed to take more than one studio at the same time. So, I signed up for weaving, and I signed up for graphics. Fortunately, the studios were right next to each other, as they still are, but I think I spent most of my time in the weaving studio. One thing I learned about weaving that summer was that I did not have the patience, so that was not going to be my craft medium. Over the years, I have searched for my craft medium and searched seriously, and it took me a while to realize I didn’t have to find a medium. I could just enjoy creating in many mediums. And so, over the ensuing years, since 1968, I have taken eight different workshops at Haystack. I have had three workshops in metals and three workshops in basket making. The basket making range from very traditional Japanese baskets to baskets made out of metal. Our class went to the Deer Isle dump and brought back things like old chainsaw blades, piano keys, hoses, garden hoses, and we made baskets from those things.

GK: [0:03:10] Wow. Was that in the fiber studio?

SB: [0:03:15] That was in the wood studio. That was in the wood studio. Actually, the Japanese basket-making studio, which was led by Jiro Yonezawa, was very traditional baskets, and that was held in the wood studio. I took a basket-making class from Sandy Elverd, who is Australian. The whole session where she taught was taught by Australian craft artists, and that was held in the regular fiber studio.

GK: [0:03:48] Wow. Interesting. A whole Australian session.

SB: [0:03:51] I think for several years there were sessions where the instructors came from a foreign country – Western European country or from Australia.

GK: [0:04:04] What period of time was that? Do you know? Those are the hard things to recall.

SB: [0:04:12] I believe it was in the 21st century.

GK: [0:04:16] Okay. [laughter]

SB: [0:04:17] But I can’t tell you what time period that was.

GK: [0:04:23] That’s great. So, you took eight classes total? Three basket –

SB: [0:04:31] Three baskets, three metals – I took a class with the Drury Haines in forming metal into bowls. I took a class with Bob Ebendorf, and I took a class just this summer with Kathleen Kennedy, where we recycled costume jewelry and made new pieces. That was a whole lot of fun.

GK: [0:05:06] That’s really cool.

SB: [0:05:10] I am a collector, with a small “c,” of crafts, and I collect primarily baskets and clay. I had never worked in clay, and I guess it would be about eight years ago that I decided I wanted to try. I thought I would never have the patience to center a pot, so I took a hand-building class with Holly Walker and really loved it. To me, it fit in with what my skills, if you can call them that, are. I am trained as an architect. So, to me, it was like making little structures. It was additive, and that was fun. That was fun.

GK: [0:05:58] Do you have an at-home craft practice? Do you do things at home?

SB: [0:06:05] When I’m at Haystack, I tell myself, “I’m going to go home, and I’m going to do more of this because I really love it.” And then life crashes into me, and I’m out of the bubble, and I go back to my daily routine. So, I have not been able to maintain a practice at home. I have materials. I have a space to work in the basement. Before COVID, I started to take metals classes in Washington, DC, and then COVID came, and I stopped. I’m tempted to do it again. But family and other – I do a lot of volunteer work at home – and other obligations – I’m not disciplined enough. I let them get in the way.

GK: [0:06:56] And it’s a good thing you have the opportunity to come here, then.

SB: [0:07:00] That’s right. That’s right. Haystack is my home studio. [laughter]

GK: [0:07:05] Yeah. I’m curious, though – going back to that first, the first session you were in 1968, can you just describe your impressions of Haystack when you first arrived?

SB: [0:07:19] It was beautiful. I just thought the location, the trees, the water. I had studied the architecture in school. I had studied it in college, so I knew what the campus looked like. I had spent most of my summers in Maine. I grew up in Connecticut, but my family went to the Rangeley Lakes in Maine every summer, and we stayed in log cabins on the lakeside and swam. We actually swam. The water was cold, but not as cold as it is here. I then went to summer camp for six summers in a row in central Maine. So, I knew Maine, but this was a beauty that I had never seen here before. I remember how beautiful it was. I remember the silhouettes of the trees in the evening, against the evening sky. Actually, the images I made in the graphics studio were based on that. I look back at them, and they bring back such nice memories.

GK: [0:08:29] That’s so lovely. And it’s really feeling the inspiration from the place itself.

SB: [0:08:35] Yes, the place was and continues to be inspiring. I was introduced to Haystack back in 1968, and I think I came to another workshop five or ten years later. In the late ’90s, I was involved with the James Renwick Alliance in Washington, DC, a support group for the Renwick Gallery, and I planned and led a trip to Maine for Alliance members. We came back and visited Haystack, and afterward, my husband met me for a weekend. Mary Nyburg invited us to have dinner at her house. She owned the Blue Heron Gallery, which is now a space that Haystack’s Winter Office occupies. Lino Tagliapietra, the glassblower, was cooking a pasta dinner, and Mary invited us to come for dinner. I was smitten. So, the next summer, my husband and I rented a cottage for one week. In subsequent summers, we added on, and we now spend the whole summer in a rented cottage in Stonington.

GK: [0:09:58] Wow. That was in the late ’90s, you said –?

SB: [0:10:00] That was in the late nineties. So, we’ve been coming up here regularly for over twenty years. We now spend a little more than two months every summer. It is our summer home.

GK: [0:10:14] That’s great. I didn’t realize that it had been so recent in the grand scheme. I thought that [in] 1968, maybe you just got the bug, and you were here. That is so wonderful. In between ’68 and that dinner, did you have involvement with Haystack in those years?

SB: [0:10:37] I’m trying to think. I know I took the workshop with Drury Haines in metal during those years. I think that was the only one other than my first workshop, the workshop in fiber weaving and the graphics workshop. I think the next one was with Drury Haines, and most of the other workshops have been in this century. Even though we are here in the summer, when I take a workshop, I like to stay on campus. Logistically, it makes sense because we’re here with just one car, but I like to be able to focus all my attention on what I’m doing and to be part of the community here at Haystack, which I think is a lot harder to do if you arrive late and then disappear right after dinner. You really have to allow yourself the time to work in the studio, to be with others and do things spontaneously on campus, to not have your mind somewhere else. Sometimes, I take workshops before my husband comes, or sometimes I take them after he leaves. But one year, I took a workshop while he was here, and I went home on Saturday morning. By Sunday morning, I felt like someone in a mental hospital who just wanted to get back to the hospital because she couldn’t deal with being in the outside world. I kept saying, “Well, I don’t have to be back until after lunch, but I really want to go back now.” [laughter] I didn’t want to do everybody’s laundry. I didn’t want to cook for everyone. I just wanted to go back, make my work, think about my work, and be with the people on campus.

GK: [0:12:36] Can you talk a little bit about the freedom that happens out here, like the things you don’t have to do, the things you’re granted freedom from?

SB: [0:12:48] Well, at least for me, as a mother, a grandmother, a wife, a sister, a community member, I’m thinking about other people all the time and what they need and what will make them happy. It’s a really healthy break for me to put that aside and think, “Well, what do you want to do now? What’s going to make you happy?” It took me a long time to learn to do that, and it’s so important. When I return to the world after a period like that, I’m there for other people and with a much more positive attitude. We haven’t talked about the things that make Haystack so special. I think it’s partly that. It’s partly that it is a retreat, and it gives you a chance to step back and think about your life and yourself. But I also find that it’s just a wonderfully supportive community. It builds very quickly. I think it has to do in part with the size. There’s a spirit, not of competitiveness, but really of helpfulness and support. Everybody is helping everybody else to be the best person they can [be], to be the best creator they can be. People are interested in learning about one another, learning from one another. They’re generous with their time. I think the instructors set the example with that. I just think people are at their best. As someone said cynically, “Well, for two weeks, you can manage to stay at your best.” And maybe that’s true. Maybe the length of the session is also part of the magic that is Haystack. But I know, for myself, I feel the best – I think of all the places in the world that I feel most like myself, and all the times that I like myself the most, it is at Haystack. It’s really my happy place.

GK: [0:15:19] Can you talk about the experience of seeing other people work and if there’s inspiration that comes from seeing other student work, like, what the relationship is to other students in this session? You kind of touched on it.

SB: [0:15:35] Well, it’s interesting, I think, not thinking as much about their work, but you get to know people in lunch and conversations, going for a walk. And I think you learn about very different lives. I have met people whom I’ve come to admire for the lives they’ve lived, for the difficulties they have surmounted, what they’ve made of themselves, and what opportunities they’ve made for themselves. I’ve come to not just appreciate what they can create but appreciate the lives that they’ve made for themselves. I’ve just been in awe of some of the human beings that I’ve met here.

GK: [0:16:26] And it’s really a place that has many different – it’s not one type of person. Obviously, it’s a diverse group of people.

SB: [0:16:36] It is that. It’s really important that there is diversity in age – young people in workshops with older people and the sharing back and forth. My connections with Haystack, in many ways, have helped to keep my thinking younger. I’m not just thinking the way all my peers are, but I’m understanding how younger people think. At this point in life, my children are in their fifties, so to be with people in their twenties is a connection to a younger generation and helps me understand them a lot more. And the approach to design problems is so very different for them than it is for people who were educated in the arts at the time that I was.

GK: [0:17:32] That’s so interesting. Yeah, such an interesting point.

SB: [0:17:36] There are differences. If you look at the projects that the young people are doing versus someone who was educated in the ’50s and ’60s, it’s quite different.

GK: [0:17:48] Yeah. Do you have any favorite memories or favorite particular sessions that really stand out in your mind?

SB: [0:18:02] Well, I have favorite sessions, I think, and they’ve been more recent ones I’ve taken. When I first came to Haystack, I was very serious about finding my craft medium and thought that maybe I was going to become an artist. And if I was, what medium would I work in? Is this going to be good enough? Am I good enough? Over the years, I kind of let that go and just thought, “I want to enjoy making things. I want to have ideas. I want to have fun with this.” As I let things go, I had a much better time, [laughter] and everything I did was not serious, but I would come up with a few things that, at the end of a session, I did feel good about it. I like the ideas I had. I liked how I executed them. But of course, if you only work in the summertime and don’t work every summer, skill level will not be high. I’m always up against the frustration of not being as skilled with the medium as I wish I were.

GK: [0:19:11] What would you say to someone who was considering taking a session in something they’ve never tried before?

SB: [0:19:20] Do it. Most workshops are open to people with little or no experience. I think the more chances you take, the more doors you open, the more possibilities there are.

GK: [0:19:38] Yeah, and it’s sort of forcing you to think in new ways. It’s like meeting new people. You’re problem-solving in a different way.

SB: [0:19:49] That said, I don’t plan to take glass, nor do I plan to take blacksmithing.

GK: [0:19:55] [laughter] You’re drawing the line at fire.

SB: [0:20:00] At the things that are that are danger to life and limb, I have drawn the line. I guess I don’t want to get that dirty. I mean, I don’t mind having dirty hands, but I don’t want to get that dirty.

GK: [0:20:13] [laughter] I understand. Can you describe how you got interested or were approached to be part of the Board of Trustees and how that happened?

SB: [0:20:29] Well, I had a friend who was on the board at Haystack, and she asked me if she could put my name forth. I was honored by the thought because I have read the list of trustees over the last fifty years, and they’ve been some of the most important people in contemporary craft, specifically contemporary American craft. I was honored and humbled by the possibility. I asked myself, “What can I contribute?” I’m certainly not an accomplished craft artist. I don’t teach. And then I realized, well, the board needs people who have all sorts of different skills. I do have graduate training in education, so I know something about learning, and I have a master’s degree in architecture, which gives me some understanding of design, some professional design training. I’ve also been active in Washington in some community organizations. I’ve sat on some boards; I’ve led some boards in Washington; and I felt that my experience on a board could be useful. Haystack’s board has evolved a lot since I came on ten years ago. It’s become a much more professional, mainstream board where the board committees have specific tasks to accomplish, and the way the board functions is a much more formal, standard way. It wasn’t loosey-goosey, but the board was not as separated from the administration in past years. The director was really the person who, even though there was a board chair and a board president, the director really was the leader of the organization. I think there is a more standard setup now where the board, in itself, functions as a separate entity. It’s much more formalized, and that’s a natural step in the evolution of a nonprofit organization. It has been going on since I was vice president, and now, with the current President who has followed me, she’s continuing to formalize procedures. We normally meet twice a year. With COVID, the board did not meet in person. We met on Zoom, and Zoom also allowed our committees to meet outside of the twice-a-year in-person meetings. Our committees have been able to do a lot; they’ve become more active; and it’s become year-round – the board work has become year-round instead of a spurt in October and a spurt in the springtime.

GK: [0:23:48] What does it mean for the organization to have a more formalized board? What purpose does that serve?

SB: [0:23:57] It gives stronger guidance to the institution. The board’s job isn’t to run the institution, not to make day-to-day decisions or even program decisions for the institution. The board’s job is to look ahead to the future and to steer the organization to make sure that the resources are there, specifically monetary resources, to move forward and to make sure that the mission and the ideals are all followed as the organization goes forth. So, the board works on mission statements. The board is part of strategic planning for the institution. The board manages the funds, the endowment, of the school. We now have professional managers. I think this began about three or four years ago when we hired a bank to professionally manage our endowment. That comes after years of trustees doing the management themselves. Professional management is more mainstream, institutionalized, and perhaps a safer way to guard the future of an organization.

GK: [0:25:29] Did that feel important to you personally as someone on the board of trustees?

SB: [0:25:38] It was important for me to – I’m not sure how to say this. It was important to me to normalize some of the functions of the board. I think that in the past, the board followed the director and rubber-stamped the director. Fortunately, the director moved us in very good directions and grew the institution into the strong school that it has become. But I think there has to be some check and balance. One of the major responsibilities of a board is to hire and fire the executive director. So, there has to be a little creative tension, a little bit of tension between the two forces. The board okays the budget; the director draws it up; the board okays the budget; the board asks questions; and sometimes, as a response to those questions, the budget is altered a bit. That’s all to the good, because it makes a much stronger school.

GK: [0:26:56] How does your coming to workshops and being also a student influence – when you were on the Board of Trustees, just influence what you think about the school?

SB: [0:27:10] Well, I only knew part of the school. I knew what it looked like from the outside. Being on the board, I learned more about what some of the considerations were in running Haystack. It’s been an interesting time. Recently, the board has gone through, a strategic planning exercise, and in implementing that strategic plan, we have hired an architect and a landscape designer to create a comprehensive campus plan, what might be called a master plan, what the architectural field calls a master plan. In our directive to the architect and to the landscaper, we talked about what some of the values were at Haystack and having been a student here, I felt I could contribute to that conversation. We talked about things like simplicity, modesty. We talked about things like community and that we did not want to change the size of Haystack, the number of people who were here, because that felt just right. We talked about how, because Haystack is just a seasonal school, we don’t need to – when we renovate, we don’t need to provide facilities that are on the level of a graduate university program or even a year-round residential craft school. We are of a scale and of a type that is different, and that is uniquely Haystack. Another value is the closeness to nature and that anything that we might build on this property would be second to the nature all around us. It would not compete. I think those are some of the things that my experience here as a student have been able to contribute to my board work. I’ve been on the committee that has been working with the master planners, and even though I’m rotating off the board, I will continue until that committee disbands, which is likely to be this winter, once we have our master plan. It’s been exciting. That’s been an exciting committee to be on. I was on the committee that hired our past board chair, Paul Sacaridiz, and that was an honor and really a wonderful experience –

GK: [0:30:06] That’s so great.

SB: [0:30:07] – finding Paul and then watching how excellent our decision in hiring him has been for Haystack. He’s left a wonderful mark on the institution.

GK: [0:30:21] Yeah, yeah, it definitely seems that way. I’m sure you were sad to see him go.

SB: [0:30:28] Absolutely. Well, I’m going to be sad to be leaving the board myself in October. I’ve made some wonderful friends. I think there have been some extraordinary people on the board. It’s been a board like none other that I have served on. I have found that with as many artists on the board, they’re good thinkers, and they often think differently than other people. If you sit on a board in Washington, DC, there’s hardly a person who is not a lawyer on the board. I am not a lawyer; I know how lawyers think, and people here come at issues differently. Really, it is refreshing. When I first came on the board, before I spoke up and when I was unsure of what I could contribute, I really listened. I listened to try and understand who these people were, how they thought, how they were contributing, and I’ve learned so much from listening, listening to others, and watching how they handled themselves in board meetings.

GK: [0:31:47] Yeah, it’s very, very interesting. Interesting is a dumb word for that. It’s very, I guess, unusual to find an institution that does have working artists and crafts people as a valuable resource for this board. That seems unusual. Just like you’re saying, it’s usually lawyers or financial advisors.

SB: [0:32:18] You need a balance. You need a balance. You need everything because you have to have someone to put on the finance committee. You have to have someone to put on the audit committee. I have been through the exercise of choosing committees several times. I listen to what people want – where they want to serve – but I also look at what we need. We need people with a range of skills. We need people with business experience. We also need people who, if they don’t have wealth themselves, have connections to people who have wealth, because you can’t build an endowment, you can’t maintain your facilities if you don’t have people who are donating to your organization. I’ve had a fair amount of experience in fundraising for other organizations, and that is something which, had Haystack gone into a fundraising campaign while I was on the board, I would certainly have been involved in because I’ve been involved in some large campaigns. There are certain procedures that are more successful than other procedures, and it helps to have people who have some experience in order to pull off a campaign. Fundraising is important. Everybody doesn’t have to have money. And when you serve on the Haystack board, there’s no requirement of how much money you have to give. Everyone has to give something, but gifts range from two figures to five figures.

GK: [0:34:04] Yeah. Yeah, it’s diverse and a board that has many different types of people.

SB: [0:34:11]And people contribute in different ways to the board.

GK: [0:34:17] Do you have something you say to someone if you want to sort of invite them into the Haystack community when you’re introducing the school to people? Is there a specific way you talk about it, or how do you approach inviting someone in?

SB: [0:34:37] I talk about the beauty, the beauty of the site, the beauty of the place. I talk about the community of people. I talk about the freedom to explore with materials and the support and encouragement that people give and get here. People don’t come here expecting to go home with a magnificent final project. They come here expecting to go home with lots and lots of ideas. I let them know that that’s the case. I think of the simplicity, the closeness – the simplicity of the place, the closeness to nature. The food is wonderful, lots of cookies. Haystack is known for its cookies. And actually, several years ago, there were two women who had been in the kitchen for maybe thirty years, and they retired, and they had done the baking. We were afraid they would take their cookie recipes with them. So, we had them write them down, and a little coiled cookie book was produced, which has been on sale on and off in the bookstore. It’s time to replenish. But it’s fun. I think it costs ten dollars, but it’s a fun souvenir of Haystack to take home. So I definitely tell them about the cookies and that there’s always food available, good for you and not so good for your food, cookies to popcorn to fruit. No matter what your dietary needs or wants, the kitchen is able to give you choices and plenty of delicious, delicious, healthy food.

GK: [0:36:45] Yeah. Which is one of those things that then you don’t have to think about that. Which is great. When you were talking about the master plan, I was just thinking about –

SB: [0:36:59] I think it’s being referred to as the comprehensive plan.

GK: [0:37:04] Comprehensive plan. Thinking about where those values come from, like the modesty and simplicity – I don’t know if this is a question you can answer, but what do you see the legacy of that being?

SB: [0:37:22] Well, I think it came from the conditions under which the school was founded by – I don’t know my history in detail, but it was founded by a small group of people, a few couples in Liberty – actually, near Liberty, Maine, in an assorted group of buildings which were not constructed for the purpose. As it grew, it moved to this campus that was designed by Edward Larrabee Barnes. These are just vernacular shed-style buildings. A former director, Stu Kestenbaum, talked about it being put up for something like eleven cents a square foot or seventeen cents a square foot, very inexpensive and simple. We’re looking pretty much at the same buildings that were put up then. They need a little renovation, and that’s going to happen, but they’re not going to be winterized, and they’re not going to be fancy. They’re just going to work a little bit better, and they’re going to last a little bit longer, be a little more comfortable. So I think that’s where those values came from. Coming out of our recent strategic plan, the value of accessibility was paramount, and part of what will occur after the strategic plan has been rolled into the comprehensive plan is that when we start doing renovations on campus, we will make spaces handicapped accessible. We now have two live-in cabins that are, but we need to have more, and we may need to have all our studios accessible.

GK: [0:39:25] It’s a tricky campus for that kind of thing.

SB: [0:39:27] It has taken many, many iterations to come up with a scheme that would work and that would not destroy the integrity of the original campus.

GK: [0:39:42] Yeah, I think where my question was forming from is that a lot of institutions and a lot of organizations are always trying to scale up. I think it’s really interesting to have a value be this is the right size and that seems to be – I’ve heard it from a number of people.

SB: [0:40:12] Well, for a while, we talked – and this was years ago. We talked in board meetings about how could Haystack reach out to more people. Everybody felt pretty definitely, certainly, that we didn’t want to be physically bigger, so we talked about, well, should we hold conferences in different places in the United States or around the world? How could we reach out? Then COVID came, and we had Zoom, and there we were. Haystack, under Paul’s leadership, started a remote program through Zoom where we could present classes and reach out to people around the world, and the success has been enormous. So, we’ve remained small, but we’ve been able to reach much further than we possibly could have imagined.

GK: [0:41:13] That is very cool. I didn’t even think. It’s a given at this point. You’re like, “Oh, yes, Haystack is doing Zoom classes.” COVID. Yeah.

SB: [0:41:24] The programs will not be as extensive this winter as they were during COVID, and people aren’t as available, but we will have a scaled-down program that will run in the winter when the campus is closed. Of course, we have community programs in the schools, particularly through our Fab Lab, where Haystack is still working, even though the shutters are closed and there’s snow on the roofs.

GK: [0:41:59] What is the Haystack position in the community, in your opinion?

SB: [0:42:07] I think it depends on the people you speak to. For years, there have been some lobstermen who have thought that a bunch of crazy nudists went to Haystack because, on some days, there used to be – I don’t know if there still are – Haystack students skinny dipping off the rocks. So the lobstermen would pull their traps at the appropriate times and enjoy these crazy people who went to Haystack. So, that’s one point of view. There are people in the community who really appreciate what Haystack has to offer because they or their children have been in programs here that have really excited their kids and interested their kids. There are people in the community, in the summer community and year-round community, who like coming out here in the summertime for the programs and for the auctions and who enjoy supporting Haystack financially. There are people in the community who aren’t as close to Haystack, don’t really understand what we do, don’t feel close to us, and might feel that people here are very different from them and they don’t understand what’s happening here. I think Haystack has a nice place in the community. We use community facilities like the Ambulance Corps, but we also contribute financially to the Ambulance Corps as a thank-you for their being there for us. We want to be a good neighbor and part of the community, and for years, we participated in the Fourth of July parade. That’s been a fun activity.

GK: [0:44:03] I know, not this year, but maybe Gene Koch’s absence was hard. My dad was the driving force.

SB: [0:44:12] Well, I think that what has happened – the 4th of July parade occurs at a time when the students have just arrived, and they’re so busy with their projects, and they don’t have the time, and the burden falls on the staff to have to produce whatever we’re going to do. It’s at a time when the staff has a lot to do, too, so it’s been difficult the last couple – particularly difficult the last few years. Until we can find a way that more people can contribute, and it isn’t just a staff project, I don’t know whether Haystack will be in the parade, but maybe under the new director, there will be a new idea, a new concept for how we could do this.

GK: [0:45:01] Yeah, it’s hard with the pace of sessions. That was one of the things Candy and I talked a lot about, just the pace of sessions in the summertime.

SB: [0:45:13] It’s relentless.

GK: [0:45:14] It’s relentless. And there’s a beauty to that.

SB: [0:45:19] Right. But It’s like you’re in a race. There’s really no downtime.

GK: [0:45:29] I’m looking at my questions for you. You’ve talked about this a bit, but I am curious – you’ve mentioned that on the board [there] have been and are a lot of people who are really important to American craft. How do you see Haystack’s position in the craft movement?

SB: [0:45:51] Well, I think Haystack has always been respected. I think it’s been considered being in the vanguard of what’s happening in the craft movement. Many people look to Haystack to see what we’re doing, to see the kinds of programming that we have. I think we are an inspiration to other places. Many craftspeople have been inspired by their time at Haystack and have gone on to do great things. My first summer, 1968, was the first summer that Dale Chihuly came to Haystack. Our career trajectories were different, but other people, influential people in their fields, have been here, too. I was here one summer when Albert Paley forged the sculpture, which is now outside of the Hot Shop. There are just innumerable people who have come to Haystack, made connections, and been inspired by the place and by their time here, and that has contributed to their careers and lifelong friendships, as well.

GK: [0:47:14] It seems like the question that I had about how craft schools kind of function – it seems like you’ve hit on it a number of times in that people are given the space to be very creative. There’s no pressure. You are allowed to just make things. And maybe that’s part of it.

SB: [0:47:39] And there’s no grading. There is time pressure. I mean, you can work twenty-four/seven here, but your session will be over. [laughter] It will be over on Thursday night. So, time is really the only pressure, but you’ve got an awful lot of it.

GK: [0:48:01] Do you have any stories or memories of staying up too late to finish something?

SB: [0:48:09] I don’t because I don’t function well at night. I’m a good morning person, but I’m not a good nighttime person. But because people burn the midnight oil, I felt in my early days that I had to be in the studio all the time, and I think I’ve done some of my best thinking before breakfast in the morning when I go for a walk. I do wake up early because it gets light early, and I go out to the road and walk out to the causeway and think and look. It’s a wonderful way to start the day. I think getting away from your bench, your workbench, can be as productive as actually being there. I’ve realized that I need some kind of rhythm between working and stepping back and talking to others and looking to see what other people are doing in the other studios.

GK: [0:49:12]That’s really profound. Also, in that early morning light, that’s probably very beautiful.

SB: [0:49:20] Well, it is. There’s a terrible hill that you have to go up before you even begin to start walking toward the causeway. I remember huffing and puffing up the hill one morning, looking down at my feet, then looking up and about ten feet away from me was a deer just standing there looking at me. I thought, “Well, this is worth it.” It was incredible.

GK: [0:49:44] Wow. What do you see? And you have touched on this a bit, but I’ll ask you in a broader way of just what do you see in the future for Haystack? What do you see coming? What’s inspiring that’s coming down the line? What do you see as changes that are afoot?

SB: [0:50:08] I feel good about the future with the work that I’ve been doing with our comprehensive plan. I can see that our physical plan’s going to be in good shape. The needs for keeping it up are going to be planned for. I think our finances are in really good shape. I think that the work we’re doing to make the campus more physically accessible is a real feather in our cap. I also think that Haystack is reaching out to be more inclusive and making an effort to be more inclusive in terms of the people who come here from various backgrounds, different countries, and different cultures. I think that’s going to further enrich the experience of being here at Haystack. So, I see that as a real plus.

GK: [0:51:12] Yeah. And does that inclusivity involve different payment structures or more scholarship?-

SB: [0:51:22] I think we have very generous scholarships, and they are now including travel awards as well as the room and board and the class tuition. In the future, we’re going to be able to adjust the rooming situation so that everyone is in a double and we don’t have dormitories anymore. It’s going to take a while to get there, and we have to work out the finances because the fee structure now is based on a sliding scale payment, which is predicated on the kind of accommodations you receive. All accommodations are going to be similar once we finish building out the plan. That’s going to take a while, but that is a goal. We have done away with work study so that the people who are here on scholarship can devote all of their time to doing their work. We have paid kitchen staff. This is the first summer that we’ve had fully paid kitchen staff, so that’s another type of inclusivity. What is the word? Equity. It shows our commitment to equity and inclusiveness on campus, and I think those are all things that will make us stronger moving forward.

GK: [0:53:09] I didn’t realize that about work-study. That’s really great. Sue, have I left out any big things that you wanted to talk about? Do you have any stories that came up for you while you were talking that you want to share about Haystack?

SB: [0:53:33] One of the nice memories of the first time I came in 1968 – I had a roommate; her name was Gail Minton. She was about my age. She was pregnant with her first child, as was I, but I didn’t know it yet. It turned out that her grandmother was Aileen Webb, who was one of the founders of the American Craft Council and the International Craft Council. I guess she knew about Haystack because of her grandmother. I wasn’t impressed at the time because I had no idea [of] any of this history, but I thought it was kind of a nice connection. When the Portland Museum of Art was putting up its exhibit about Haystack and doing interviews, learning more about the early years of Haystack, I was interviewed for that, and I was able to point them in the direction of Gail so that they could reach her where she now lives in Arizona, and interview her about her connections to Haystack. So, it was kind of fun to be a bridge there, to be a connector.

GK: [0:54:56] That is so amazing. It’s amazing that you remembered – retroactively, you figured that out. That’s great.

SB: [0:55:06] Well, it was kind of fun. That first summer, Fran Merritt was the director. I’ve come here under every director. Fran was the director, and his wife, Priscilla, had a craft gallery in Deer Isle Village. I think it was called Centennial House Gallery. I’m not sure, but I bought a few pieces of ceramic that summer, including some mugs made by Byron Temple. The mugs were in the show at the Portland Museum of Art, which was kind of fun for me. They were production mugs; they were not one of a kind, but it was kind of fun to have those in the show.

GK: [0:55:52] Yeah, that’s great. You were at a session under every different director.

SB: [0:56:02] Under every director.

GK: [0:56:03] Would you say that the tone –? I know it is many years between 1968 to the twenty-first century, but did the tone of the school change over that time?

SB: [0:56:18] I don’t think the tone changed. I think different directors – you meet so many evenings up in Gateway, and different directors handle the Gateway experience differently. But I think we’ve been lucky to have some outstanding people with different styles. All of them have really been people who encourage connections, encourage creativity, are open and accepting of differences, and welcome all people who come here.

GK: [0:57:06] The Gateway experience – was that there when Fran Merritt was there?

SB: [0:57:13] I don’t believe Gateway was built yet. It was not part of – Barnes did not design the Gateway. It was designed –I think there was an architect whose name was David Cheever, and he was on the board, and he designed the original Gateway. Later, it was expanded, made larger than the original building. The campus that Barnes designed began down at the bottom of the ledge. Well, where the office is – and actually, the office has been added to since the original Barnes design, too.

GK: [0:57:52] Yeah, a few buildings here and there have been added. Well, that’s wonderful. Thank you, Sue. We’ve been talking for over an hour. I asked all my questions. But if there’s anything that you want to say or are thinking of.

SB: [0:58:11] I just want to say that it’s been a privilege and a pleasure for me to have been associated with Haystack. It’s been one of the highlights of my life, and I am grateful for it.

GK: [0:58:28] That’s wonderful. It sounds like it’s been a real joy for you.

SB: [0:58:36] It truly has. Thank you.

GK: [0:58:38] Thank you. I’m going to turn this off.