Galen Koch: [00:00:00] We’re good. I will type my questions as I say them in the chat.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:00:09] Okay.

Galen Koch: [00:00:12] Then I will mute myself when you are talking just so you can talk freely without me interrupting.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:00:28] Okay.

Galen Koch: [00:00:30] My first question is: Can you introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about yourself?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:00:42] Okay. Well, I am from San Diego. When I went to college, I went to San Diego State. Then I moved to Virginia to study at VCU, Virginia Commonwealth University, and then after that, I went to Boston University. It was during that time that I first found out about Haystack. One of the faculty members said I should go to Haystack. Being from San Diego, I had never heard about it before. That was the case back in the ’70s; I felt like a lot of the West Coast people didn’t really know about some of these craft programs like Haystack and Penland. It wasn’t until I moved back East that I found out about the schools. So, that puts me back at Haystack around 1970 – I think it was ’76 that I went for the first time one summer. I took a workshop, and I was assisting somebody. I was taking the class, but I was a work-study scholarship student. The teacher’s name was, gosh, Charles (Marianna?), which is funny because my name is Murayama, and his name was (Marianna?), something like that. He was teaching a woodworking class, a toy-making class, actually. I went to Haystack mainly for that community experience because I’d never really been there before. I had been to Penland the year before, and then I went to Haystack, and it was completely different. The two schools are so different. I guess maybe I’m skimming over who I am and kind of cutting to the chase about my history with Haystack. But I was always a craft major, starting out as a metal worker when I was a student. I later migrated to the woodworking focus in graduate school. Then, I pursued my MFA from RIT [Rochester Institute of Technology] in Rochester in 1980. I had been back to Haystack to teach first and then was on the board for a while, too. I can’t remember the dates, but anyway, it was really a nice way to broaden the community network of craftspeople instead of just being limited to the people that you met at school.

Galen Koch: [00:04:34] Can you tell me how you first heard about Haystack?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:04:45] First heard about it? I think when I was at Boston University in 1976 – I think it might have been the summer of ’77 when I was trying to figure out what to do over the summer, and my teacher, Alphonse Mattia, suggested that I take a workshop at Haystack. So, I applied for a scholarship, basically at his recommendation, and he was also the one that recommended Penland as well. He was pretty much the person that initiated me to the summer workshop program.

Galen Koch: [00:05:44] What was your first impression of Haystack when you went there?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:05:53] I loved it because, being from a coastal area, it was really nice. I was just overwhelmed to be back near the ocean. That was really my first big impression was that it was right there on the water. The smell of the sea and the ocean and the breeze was just so invigorating. I also liked the fact that it wasn’t too big. Penland, by comparison, was a much larger school, with many more programs and more students. Haystack was a little less intimidating; it was more like a family-style school. I think it has to do with the way the dining is set up. That was another first impression that I had was how the meals were served. I think it used to be back then that it was family style at all the dinners. Now, they don’t do so much. I think it’s buffet-style all the time. I kind of liked that family-style of dining in the dining hall. I also loved the little studios that we all worked in. The woodshop was in a great location; it overlooked most of the campus since it was up on top. It was so long ago. It’s funny, I don’t think the facility has changed very much since I’ve been there. Some of the equipment is better because I remember – I don’t know how familiar you are with woodworking, but when you use the table saw, if you want to cut an angled cut, you can make a blade tip at an angle. But the table saw in the shop at that time was so old that the way it worked was the whole table tilted, and the blade stayed straight. That was kind of nerve-wracking. I think I might even have nipped my finger on the blade because it was so awkward. I think they finally got rid of that machine and got a more modern machine. But, gee, that was pretty archaic. It goes to show that Haystack was able to offer really interesting classes despite having a very basic woodworking shop. It was really basic. It didn’t have any extras. For making toys, it didn’t require a lot of equipment, so it was less intimidating that way. Let’s see. I’m trying to remember about Haystack. It was the geographical location that made it so distinct, and it’s very beautiful.

Galen Koch: [00:10:02] How has the school changed over time? You’ve been going for a while. How did it change?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:10:20] I can’t say that I, myself, have experienced the most immediate changes that a lot of schools are going through right now in terms of the last five years. I can’t even remember the last time that I taught there. It might have been ten years ago, maybe? I have to look it up.

Galen Koch: [00:10:47] I think 2014.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:10:53] Was that the last time? Because that was almost ten years ago. I think a lot of changes took place right around the pandemic, just coincidentally with all the student advocacy group things and financial challenges. I would say the biggest change that I experienced, which was a very good positive change, was – I’m trying to remember who the director of the school was when I was there. I know it wasn’t Fran Merritt; it was somebody else, and I don’t think he lasted very long.

Galen Koch: [00:11:47] Maybe Howard [Evans]?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:11:50] Yeah. Maybe that was the name. What was the name? Howard? Is that what you said? Yeah. I think he was just – I mean, he was a nice enough guy. He was nice enough. I don’t have anything negative to say about him, although he did make us all hold hands before we started teaching. I don’t think we prayed, but it was – I don’t know. That’s what I remember, anyway. [laughter]

Galen Koch: [00:12:38] So that was –?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:12:42] You have to remember; it was in the ’70s, too. The next time I was at Haystack was when I was teaching. I think it was in the ’80s. I can’t remember when in the ’80s, but that was when Stuart Kestenbaum came on. He was the director back then, and I think there was almost an immediate, noticeable change through his leadership. It had a lot to do with his ability to bring people together. He was ever-present. He was always around. He always made the rounds and visited all the studios. He would remember everybody’s name from the get-go for like twenty to thirty years. It was pretty incredible that he was able to retain that information about everybody. I think he was overall a gentle, kind persona that really pulled his staff together consistently. I also appreciated being part of the Board of Trustees under his leadership as well. His demeanor with students was no different than his demeanor with the Board of Trustees, and I appreciate that. So, I haven’t been to Haystack since Stuart left. I was not there when Paul [Sacaridiz] was there. Poor Paul. I think he took that position just before the pandemic. Of course, I know Perry [Price] from before. So, I’m sure that Haystack is in great hands under Perry’s leadership. As far as my own memory of how Haystack grew and changed was through observing Stu in his leadership role. I don’t hear you for some reason. Are you muted?

Galen Koch: [00:15:34] Oh, I’m muted.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:15:36] Okay.

Galen Koch: [00:15:39] I said that’s a really important perspective to have. You know about the ’70s to about 2014. I’m curious what you took away from your time at Haystack and what you think other students and faculty take away from their time.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:16:22] Let’s see. I’m trying to think. I think both at Penland and Haystack – being able to teach has given me a certain amount of self-confidence in terms of working with brand new students for such a short period of time. I’ve really learned how the dynamics are so different from teaching for a whole semester the same group of students. The opportunity to teach in that kind of arena is really invaluable to me because I found that I took away – some of the ideas I got from teaching at Haystack I was able to bring back to the regular university environment and apply in the same manner in terms of developing short term assignments and making those assignments much more important, even more important than an assignment that took five to eight weeks. I don’t think I would have gotten to that point if I didn’t teach at Haystack. I also learned a lot from being on the Board of Trustees, too. The board that I was on, most of us were academics, so we would have some really great conversations about what we were doing with our students, what kind of books we were recommending, and what kind of assignments they were giving. It was really just a treasure trove of information for a young educator like myself back in those days. That, to me, was significant. What was the other thing –? All these thoughts keep going through my head, and then they sort of disappear. Then the other thing that was also fantastic about teaching at Haystack was that it was a great way to recruit students for my program. I gained some really great graduate students from teaching workshops at Haystack and Penland. That was a big resource. Oh, is that your doggie? [laughter]

Galen Koch: [00:19:40] Sorry. [laughter]

Wendy Maruyama: [00:19:44] You’re on the couch. Is that a Heeler or an Australian Shepherd?

Galen Koch: [00:19:52] Yeah, he looks like this. He’s sweet. You said you recruited students. Remind me where you were teaching at that time.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:20:19] Right, it would be San Diego State, mostly. For the first five years, I was teaching at the Appalachian Center for Craft between 1980 and 1985. I’m trying to remember if I ever taught at Haystack during that time period. And then, after Tennessee, I taught at the California College of Arts and Crafts in the Bay area for four years before I got a position at San Diego State. I think most of my recruiting was for San Diego State because I started there in 1989.

Galen Koch: [00:21:07] Yeah, it looks from my notes like you started teaching in 1991, which makes sense because Stu started in the late ’80s.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:21:36] Yeah, that’s about right because when I experienced Haystack as a student, that would have been in 1977, I guess. It’s interesting. I didn’t realize so much time went by between my being a student and my teaching there. I do know that I taught at Penland when I was living in Tennessee, so it could have been a regional thing, too. I don’t know.

Galen Koch: [00:22:18] Let me type it, too. Can you talk about how you view Haystack’s position in the craft movement? How does Haystack influence craft?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:22:40] Certainly, Haystack has a place in the history of contemporary craft. It’s a relatively young school. It’s a baby as far as craft schools go, but it started during a very vital period. It was just at the beginning of the resurgence of craft, starting with Objects: USA, which was a real pioneering exhibition in the ’60s. Most of who’s who in American craft had taught there, so it had a lot of significance in terms of the heavy hitters that they had teaching there on a regular basis. One would look at the Haystack catalogs not only to see what classes there were but who was teaching, what kind of students were they generating, and, of course, what kind of work were they doing. More often than not, the faculty was all at the peak in terms of their – I wouldn’t say popularity but being well-known in the field. A lot of them were pioneers in their field. One of my mentors is Arline Fisch, and I don’t know if you planned on interviewing her or not, but she was also an early proponent of Haystack since the beginning. She had taught there quite often in the metals program. I really don’t know what kind of health she’s in right now. But I know that she is probably in her nineties by now. She was a very important mentor. In fact, I think because of her, I was recruited for the board. We were both on the board at the same time. It was really great to be able to work side-by-side with her. I think she was not only a former teacher but a lifelong mentor. That was a great opportunity, too, to be able to share that board with some very important craftspeople who really had a lot of hope for Haystack. That was one of the takeaways that I would have had from Haystack. I don’t know if I answered that question.

Galen Koch: [00:26:17] You did. Is it Eileen Fisch? I put it in the chat, my question. How do you spell it?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:26:29] Arline, A-R-L-I-N-E. You spelled her last name correctly.

Galen Koch: [00:26:51] I will ask the Haystack admin; they are telling me who to interview.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:26:55] I would definitely reach out to her because she created a scholarship at San Diego State for Haystack, and she’s always been a big Haystack supporter. I think it would be a big omission if she was not included in some way in these interviews. She loved Haystack. She saw it as an opportunity to invite her students to come. Her assistants were invited to the workshop, and therefore, they broadened their experience as well. I might say that I followed her footsteps by doing the same thing. If I had a great student who could benefit from helping me teach at Haystack, I would ask that person to come along and be my assistant. That’s something that I learned from Arline as well.

Galen Koch: [00:28:12] That’s great. I will ask about interviewing her.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:26:20] Yeah, it’d be important to include her.

Galen Koch: [00:28:23] The next question I have for you is, what do you tell people about –? Sorry, let me rephrase. When you tell people about Haystack, what do you say? Why is this school important to you?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:28:55] Pretty much everything I’ve told you, I would say. It has a wonderful grassroots approach to running a school, for one thing. You don’t get the sense that it has become this corporate engine, which a lot of schools have become lately. I’m sure Haystack found itself in the same position of needing to raise money and become familiar with the monied people to support the school. But I always felt like it operated on a grassroots level. The classes that they offered often had the same kind of initiatives to bring students who want to not only broaden their own craft repertoire but also work within a very close community and develop the social skills that I think are also just as important as the craft skills. I think Haystack’s layout and the way they structure the activities is much more welcoming to people who may not have that kind of social interaction on a regular basis. I feel like it’s offered a lot in terms of not only teaching craft but working with a group of people. As a person who’s deaf and hearing impaired and has cerebral palsy, these kinds of environments are kind of hard, but Haystack has made it pretty easy. It’s nice. [laughter] Yeah.

Galen Koch: [00:31:25] What do you think about the culture of the school makes it easier for someone with those needs?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:31:51] I’m not even sure. I kind of wonder if it’s just the craft community in general that is already a pretty empathetic and understanding group of people that they’re motivated and help each other out. It could be the nature of craft, too. If you’re making things by hand and you’re making things by hand together in the same room, there becomes this kind of – I’m kind of at a loss for the right words to place on the whole idea – assisting each other or advising each other or talking about what makes the work unique, to share with others about your work is not easily done in larger communities so Haystack nurtured that space to do something like that.

Galen Koch: [00:33:22] What was the experience like as a teacher?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:33:29] It was so much less stressful than teaching for fifteen weeks at a time because you’re going to be done in two weeks, for one thing, but also, I think there’s more room for risk-taking. Students are more willing to be more experimental in that kind of classroom versus, if you’ve got them taking a class for fifteen weeks. There’s what I refer to as the “masterpiece syndrome,” where everybody feels like they’ve got to make a masterpiece. At Haystack, you can’t really think that way because you need to work really quickly and learn to embrace that way of working in a short time.

Galen Koch: [00:34:35] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:34:41] I loved it. Of course, you’ve got totally different personalities in that class. You have a much more diverse population of students than I would at San Diego State, for example. Most of the people are from San Diego or Southern California. If you go to Haystack, you’ve got people from up and down the East Coast, some from the Midwest, and some from abroad. So it’s really a much more diverse group of people to work with. The meeting of the minds is much more exciting and far-reaching.

Galen Koch: [00:35:29] Uh-oh, we have a big sound happening there.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:35:35] Yeah, what is that? Is that on my end or your end?

Galen Koch: [00:35:39] It’s on your end. I’m muted. I think it’s a mower.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:35:46] Yeah. I just heard that, and I think it’s gone now. I don’t know.

Galen Koch: [00:35:53] Yeah, hopefully it’s gone. I was curious if you could talk about your time as a trustee.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:36:13] I hear that noise again. Can you hear it? It’s more annoying for you. Anyway, as a trustee, I was able to serve three three-year terms, and I made really great friends from being on the board. I became even better friends with people that I already knew. I think I’ve mentioned earlier that working with fellow academics was really invaluable, and the application of how we taught was often discussed in terms of what kind of programming to think about for Haystack. I think it was during that period that they started to have what was called “special sessions,” where there was thematic programming where everybody had the same themes. I’m not even sure what year that would be. Would you happen to know? I don’t know.

Galen Koch: [00:37:53] I don’t know.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:37:57] I do remember that it was either already started or had just been implemented when I was on the Board of Trustees.

Galen Koch: [00:38:12] Are you talking about the Africa sessions and other –?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:38:27] It would be similar. It would be similar. Yeah, I’m trying to remember. This is back in the ’90s, but every summer, there’d be one session set aside that was thematic. I guess the one that you mentioned would be part of the programming. I don’t remember if we had the writers in residence back then. I think so because we had those monographs. They published a monograph every year, and that was another project that the Board of Trustees was involved in. And then, of course, the usual housekeeping, studio maintenance, and working with the staff. It’s a very small staff when you think about it for all that it has going on. I loved that we were just across the way from the maintenance shed. I got to know the maintenance guys pretty well. [laughter]

Galen Koch: [00:40:11] I’ll tell you. That is my dad. Gene Koch is my dad.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:40:22] [laughter] I was wondering if you were related to Gene. Okay. I love Gene. Gene was one of the people that I looked forward to seeing every time.

Galen Koch: [00:40:36] Yeah, I grew up there, basically.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:40:40] Oh, you did, so you know all about the place.

Galen Koch: [00:40:44] That’s wonderful. Do you have favorite memories from being on the board?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:41:03] There were so many that I can’t really remember anything that was really significant, significantly different. I thought it was a lot of fun when we got to meet in different places other than Haystack. I loved meeting at Haystack, but I also loved the spring meeting, where we got to meet at a different trustee’s hometown. I think Marlin Miller hosted us once, and that was in Pennsylvania or something. And then another time, it was right outside of Philadelphia. That was one amazing thing: I got to meet Toshiko Takaezu, who is a famous Japanese American potter. I remember looking up to her because she was one of the few big-name Japanese American craftspeople back then, and she was a woman, so that resonated with me. We were able to go to the studio and see her amazing work. For me, that was one of the gifts of being part of that board was being able to visit various homes of craftspeople. I remember – who was the fairly well-known jeweler that lived near Haystack? He’s been gone a while now.

Galen Koch: [00:42:58] Was he a staff person?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:43:03] Pearson.

Galen Koch: [00:43:06] Oh, Ron Pearson.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:43:07] Yeah, yeah. We went to see his studio. Just little things like that were icing on the cake in terms of being on the board. One of the things I appreciated about being on the board that time was that we didn’t have to do as much fundraising. The artists weren’t expected to do it, but I’m getting the feeling that – I’d be curious to know if that’s how the board is operating now. Is fundraising becoming an all-encompassing job for the board at large?

Galen Koch: [00:44:08] I’m not sure, but as you probably know, that’s become more common for boards in general.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:44:19] Very common, yeah.

Galen Koch: [00:44:19] I’m curious what topics and issues were coming up when you were on the board? What did you tackle as a board?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:44:51] The library was kind of a big – Arline Fisch’s baby, actually, was to develop that library. I remembered that was something that was accomplished just when I joined the board. I remember that we were just entering the digital age, so it was really difficult in the early days to see the importance of online access. I think maybe it’s still difficult for Haystack, but I’m not sure if that’s improved very much – Wi-Fi and all that.

Galen Koch: [00:45:42] Now, it’s a different issue of trying to figure out how connected they should be.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:46:12] Oh, right, right. Knowing Stu, I think Stu was more of a Luddite. [laughter] I don’t think he liked digital stuff as much. [inaudible] outside is terrible. Is there a way to [inaudible] the noise for you?

Galen Koch: [00:46:33] Yeah. That’s okay. I can try to clean it later. Don’t worry.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:46:50] One of the things that I loved about – I know I’m bouncing all over the place. I’m not talking about being a trustee anymore. But talking about digital access and that sort of thing, one of the things I loved about my last workshop was having access to the digital studio across the way. What my students were able to do with that facility was just eye-opening, not just for them but for me as well. That, to me, was the biggest takeaway from the last workshop that I taught at Haystack. I think Haystack was probably one of the first schools to develop a digital lab for a school of its kind. I think Anderson Ranch had a big one too, but I think Haystack because MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology] they had – but that was so much fun. It was more fun than being in the woodshop.

Galen Koch: [00:48:22] What did your students do? Do you remember?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:48:29] Yes, I was teaching a class on how to make tambours, which is like a roll-top desk. My focus was not using that technique traditionally. I wanted them to play around with the whole idea of all these sticks being glued to a piece of fabric and being able to move. Then, the digital lab allowed those sticks to be cut out in very weird shapes that would be really difficult to do by hand. If you had a laser cutter and computer, you were able to make multiple cuts that were identical so that you could have these moving pieces. It was pretty amazing. I almost forgot about that. That was really – I don’t think I could teach another workshop because that one was so much fun. I don’t want to ruin it by teaching another one that’s not as good.

Galen Koch: [00:49:53] That’s great. I do a lot of work with the Fab Lab as it’s called the digital studio.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:50:04]Yeah, the Fab Lab. That’s what Sosu calls it, a Flab.

Galen Koch: [00:50:08] It’s very exciting.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:50:10] Yeah, it is very – it’s funny. I don’t remember a lot of details about being on the board. Maybe it got to be a little too much like faculty meetings, and I’ve always hated faculty meetings. Board meetings were a little bit like that.

Galen Koch: [00:50:36] Can you share with me why institutions like Haystack are important? Not even on a craft/culture level but just as places that craftspeople can go. What makes it unique?

Wendy Maruyama: [00:51:10] I like the fact that Haystack offers different programs at different times of the year for different groups of people, like Open Door is one of them. What’s the one where they invite artists to come and play for a week in the fall?

Galen Koch: [00:51:32] There’s a residency now.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:51:41] It has its own name. I did it once, and it was a lot of fun because it was people I knew in the field, and we all got to hang out. Then I know that they’re doing more social justice sessions [and] classes for the local population. I think Haystack is one of the first to have that kind of programming. I know Penland does a lot of them now. They offer opportunities for the local community. I think that a problem that some craft schools have is that they get plunked into the middle of this community, often a rural community, and the people around them don’t understand what the school is all about. While that is a challenge, it also brings to that community the chance to be able to experience craft. I remember the Appalachian Center was built in 1980 in the middle of this southern, rural, beautiful area, kind of like Haystack. There’s a lake instead of the ocean. But all the people around the community didn’t understand the kind of artwork that the students were doing. They assumed that we were making quilts and brooms and pots but in a very traditional way. Instead, they were seeing these bizarre painted furniture pieces and sculptures with these big old heads. It was just very foreign to them. I see that as an opportunity for those communities. Also, I know that Penland benefits – the surrounding community benefits economically from people who come to Penland not only to study but to visit. The community in Asheville has become this huge craft community. I don’t know. Have you seen that in Maine near Deer Isle?

Galen Koch: [00:54:54] Yeah. Definitely, there’s a big year-round artist community that wouldn’t live there if it weren’t for Haystack.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:55:11] Right. That’s another benefit I see about not only Haystack but all these schools that have been placed in these communities. I’m trying to see what your original question was. [laughter] What was the original question? Let me see. Oh, why Haystack is important. If we didn’t have that – let’s imagine that these schools didn’t exist. I think it would be very difficult to sustain craft on a national level, if not international, without these kinds of thriving communities to keep it inspiring, to inspire the field. It would be difficult, I would think.

Galen Koch: [00:56:29] That’s a really interesting point, that it sustains a community of craft.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:56:40] Yes, it does. If you could just imagine for a moment that Haystack didn’t exist, what would happen to these people who live in these far reaches of the country? How else are they going to know each other? I wouldn’t even know anybody if it hadn’t been for all these craft schools. I’d be stuck in San Diego, eating Mexican food every day. Not that there’s anything wrong with that; I would eat Mexican food anyway. I’m just trying to make a stupid regional joke. Haystack was the first time I’ve had lobster. Yay. [inaudible]. I was like, “Wow, this is pretty good.” [laughter]

Galen Koch: [00:57:49] That is important. I like the idea that it brings people together from all over the country.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:57:57] Yeah.

Galen Koch: [00:57:58]  And maybe the world.

Wendy Maruyama: [00:58:00] And then all ages, too. I’m glad to see that finally, the younger generation is jumping on the craft bandwagon because, for a while there, it seemed like there were tons of us in our sixties and seventies and eighties and a few people in their forties and fifties, but not very many and hardly anybody in their twenties and thirties. As a younger person, what is your observation of that age gap in the craft field?

Galen Koch: [00:58:49] I think that when I was in my twenties – so, I’m in my thirties now. When I was in my twenties, craft and Haystack were really cool. [laughter] You wanted to go there. That maybe was a change from the ’90s and early 2000s. I was twenty years old in 2008. I think a lot of people in my age group were interested in craft and art schools and craft schools, so I think you are right. It changed, and there are more young people involved now.

Wendy Maruyama: [01:00:00] Good. That’s good to know. I’m not sure what happened with that gap. When you really think about it, the people that we’re talking about are the people whose parents are my age. Their grandparents are my age. What are they not sharing with their kids about the importance of handwork and making things by hand? I sometimes blame the schools, too. You might be in a unique position of having lived near Haystack. Maybe your school that you went to was much more in tune with the importance of art, but for the rest of the country, there aren’t that many arts programs in schools unless their parents sent them to an after-school program, a summer program.

Galen Koch: [01:01:21] Yeah, I agree. Wendy, I unfortunately have to go around 5:30, but I feel like there might be more to talk about.

Wendy Maruyama: [01:01:44] Just so you know, I’m really good at email. So, if you have any follow-up questions, don’t hesitate to send me an email.

Galen Koch: [01:01:55] Okay, great. We could talk again, perhaps even briefly? Would that be okay?

Wendy Maruyama: [01:02:05] Yeah.

Galen Koch: [01:02:09] Thank you.

Wendy Maruyama: [01:02:10] We covered a lot.

Galen Koch: [01:02:12] Yes.